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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all, At work we sometimes pass magazines from one to another when we see something that someone else might be interested in. Well a felow rider passed me a copy of Road Bike ( Oct 06 ) because of the cover bike.... Bad Boy Kaw ZX-14!! SWEET...

But what really caught my eye was on the top of the cover... "Fuel risk - how bad is Ethanol for your motorcycle"

They go on to show a float valve that has been exposed to ethanol next to a new one, and it is plain to see why they "stick".

They go on to explain that since it is an Alcohol and it attracts moisture then that does not help with our carb'd motors. Most of what they learned was from shops doing more than the usual amount of carb jobs!

I seem to remember seeing on the pumps at one time posted that it was an Ethanol mixed fuel... may have said how much ( 10 - 15 % ) and if you live in a high wumid area then the more mosture it will attract. :doh:

So using Sea Foam not only cleans the fuel system it also keeps the Ethanol better suspended in the fuel to minimize it effects. They list another sabilizer from Maxima Racing Oils http://www.maximausa.com on one of thier products, thier suggested use is 1 oz to 1 gal mix ( rich ) to 1 oz to 2.5 gal ( norm ) and the rep from that company says that fuel stablizers use has gone up in the past few years!

So check the fuel that you are putting in and the more humid your area is... the more you should be using Sea Foam!! Even if you live in a dry climate, but still use gas with Ethanol, it would still be wise to keep it on hand!

http://www.roadbikemag.com/ To see or get a copy for yourself just so you know what I was reading.
 

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and the Adventure Cycle
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I think they are just starting to, or getting ready to, use Ethanol here in PA.
I'll certainly keep this article in mind. Thanks :smiley_th
 

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Shell puts ethanol in their gas here in coastal Texas and in most of the Gulf Coast states that I've traveled in.
Most gas in California has it as well. They call it "oxygenated" but it's still ethanol.
The real bad boy is methanol (wood alcohol).
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I look at it this way.... "any" alcohol is bad.. :(
 

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Hard to say how ethanol will effect carbed bikes in the long run. Here in Ia we have had it since the early 80's. Cars run just fine on it but I only used it for a short time in one of my bikes a CSR 305 and it ran over 2000 rpms just find but would not idle worth a crap on that stuff. I have have a friend with a V-star with over 30,000 miles on it and it has only had ethanol put in and it runs like a champ but it has been rejetted and that might be why it runs so good.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Going by the artical.. many factors may come into play... storage time, humidity,percent of ethanol.... FI bikes? It is not end all for why..... but one of possably many reasons. Find a copy and read it for yourself.
 

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Quoted from a news report on an Austin tv news station earlier this week:

"Consumer Reports did a study on ethanol's fuel efficiency using a Chevy Tahoe and found out that the miles per gallon actually dropped from 14, down to 10.

Drivers we talked to also noticed that while ethanol burns cleaner, it also burns a bit faster.

"There's probably a little bit of difference there, but when you look at savings in cost, it balances out," Bell said.

"We'll continue to keep it at 30 cents per gallon below the regular unleaded price," Lockett said."

So, let's do some math. Using the Consumer Reports numbers with the Chevy Tahoe, if it can get 14 mpg using regular unleaded, for simplicity, we'll use 200 miles for our test. 200 miles divided by 14 is 14.28 gallons of gas. Multiply that by $2.35 a gallon and it comes to $33.55 for gas for that 200 mile trip.

Same Tahoe using Ethanol getting 10 mpg means that it takes 20 gallons to go 200 miles. Multiply 20 gallons by $2.05 and it costs $41 for the same 200 mile trip! Idiots! Oh yeah, did I mention IDIOTS!
 

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Fergy, the most striking thing here is the vehicle in question - Chevy Tahoe.
If you care for gas/milage why would you drive that pile in a first place?
 

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OK, now why is it that SeaFoam is better than ethanol, and why should we use it? IS alcohol bad, or isn't it? Seems like the article is saying not to use seafoam.
 

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tankist said:
Fergy, the most striking thing here is the wehicle in question - Chevy Tahoe.
If you care for gas/milage why would you drive that pile in a first place?
Not really sure, but consumer reports usually doesn't do things that make real sense. I'd like to see numbers on a vehicle that can get at least 20 mpg on unleaded and how that compares to ethanol.

Ernie, I think the article is saying that seafoam helps offset the poor characteristics of the ethanol, making it burn a little better. Problem with ethanol, alcohol has a very high surface tension so it doesn't vaporize very well, so when it's mixed with gasoline, it causes a lot of unburned fuel droplets to escape through the exhaust. Other tests I have read showed that the vehicles burning ethanol had worse emissions than vehicles burning regular gasoline! The whole idea behind ethanol is $$$. They present it as a fuel that we can produce which will "save the world" and not deplete the oil resources, but in reality, it does more damage to the environment than burning gas does.
 

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ethanol is good for us period. yes, it may screwup existing engines but thats the price we need to pay. the fact is we are running out of oil - at current rate of consumption there is about 15-20 years worth of world oil supply left. i would rather drive on ethanol then on donkey. it is up to manufacturers to build ethanol based or even multi fuel engines. that's been done for some time already on modern Tanks. some tanks today run on whatever burns: plane fuel, gasoline,diesel,alchohol. in case of a russian multi fuel armor there is a strong rumor that says it runs even on vodka. if the rumor is true then in particular case with russians its a bad thing - the crew first will fuel themselves and only then the armor with what remains.

i believe governments should take action in discouraging use of fuel inifficient vehicles: introduce gas guzzler fee times and times higher then today, restrict allowed year milage with huge fines for those who drive over, banning production of new vehicles that cant meet at least 18miles/galon (increasing the plank every year) and mandatory refitment with fuel efficient engines for older vehicles as a condition to stay on the road.

sorry for the long rant. this entire fuel thing driving me nuts. ignorance is a bliss i guess...
 

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tankist said:
ethanol is good for us period. yes, it may screwup existing engines but thats the price we need to pay. the fact is we are running out of oil - at current rate of consumption there is about 15-20 years worth of world oil supply left.
Tankist, you might want to go do some research on the oil supply! That statement is absolutely not true. There's soooooo much money in oil that the oil companies would have you believe that there is a shortage so they can charge what they want for it. Have you seen city vehicles that run on natural gas? Most big cities have converted their municipal bussing fleet and many of their city work vehicles to run on natural gas. Have you ever seen oil refineries and oil wells with a pipe sticking up with a flame burning? Those flames that burn constantly at the top of those smoke stacks aren't symbolism to the "eternal flame" in DC! That's natural gas being burned off because there is so much of it they just waste it, and it costs so little to package up and sell, it's not worth their effort, compared to the billions they can make on oil. Go do some research on this, I challenge you! Don't believe what the government wants you to!
 

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fergy ,ok,i will buy into your optimizm. lets assume we have 40 or even 80 years. but it doesn't meant we need to burn it all right away. besides, by importing oil we enrichng the arabs. the less oil we buy , the less money is going to go to arabs even if by small ammount.

it is up to manufacturer to produce ethanol efficient engines. i believe it can and should be done. for now ethanol will do but they really should jump on hydrogen engine research instead of spending materials and effort on building tahoes, escalades and alike.
 

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With all the newer technology oil extraction methods that are now cost effective where they weren't 10 years ago, there is so much oil in reserve, there are wells all over Texas that are just sitting, not pumping because they can't afford to run them. Oil prices suddenly go down and the oil companies misteriously cliam that they discovered new oil reserves out in the gulf. I can take you on a tour and show you oil fields that are not being pumped because they can't sell the oil. My best friend has a friend in Houston that works for an oil company, I believe Shell, but I'm not sure I remember that part of it, but he has told Frank that the company has made so much money over the last year that they are having a hard time finding things to spend it on. It's a shame.

I strongly believe that you shouldn't waste "any" natural resource, like oil, water and natural gas! I also believe that long before there will be any oil shortage, there will be alternatively fueled or powered vehicles that will be the standard instead of the exception. The problem is that so many people in high places are making so much money off of oil, that it will be hard to get anywhere with alternate fuel.

You want to read something really cool? Check this out: http://www.angellabsllc.com/
These guys have developed a tiny engine that is extremely fuel effecient and so massive in horsepower for it's size, they have won awards for it. But believe it or not, they are begging for "us" to spread the word. You would think that the environmentally cautious government of ours would be jumping all over this, but for some "reason" they haven't shown any interest... Hmmmm.
 

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:itchy-scr Not to throw a wrench into the works here but has anybody considered the amount of energy it takes to produce ethanol enriched fuels? The main reason it is cheaper to run right now is government alternate fuel tax inititives.
 

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fergy, this MYT thing is cool!! however this is not the only example of projects without proper attention. as far as oil wells in texas not pumping this a very smart move on the US's part - we are going to drain the arab supply first. i really want you to be right on this one, and hope that we have huge oil supply left.

i will have to agree, production of ethanol does consume a lot of resources.
 

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wwmkwood said:
:itchy-scr The main reason it is cheaper to run right now is government alternate fuel tax inititives.
See my post on page one of this thread. It's not cheaper to run! It's a misconception, that with a little simple math is easy to prove wrong. The funny thing was that every person they interviewed (around 20 people who were buying the ethanol) to a person they all said that they didn't get as good gas mileage out of it but they figured it would even out since it was 30 cents cheaper.

Tankist, I'm rooting for me too on this one! :D After all, I'm no chemical engineer, and what can you believe out of what you read? All I know is that there is a lot out there that disputes the claim that we are short on oil. A lot of it is by reputable sources, and heck, they were saying in the 70's that we were running out of oil.

I've read a lot on the subject of fuel, additives, ethanol and even if you can only believe a fraction of what you read, trust me, there's something going on...

Vaporization of fuel is necessary to have it completely burn in the combustion chamber. Carbs and fuel injectors do a pretty crappy job of vaporizing fuel and some of the fuel remains in droplets because of the high surface tension of gasoline. Additives like acetone and others can greatly reduce the surface tension of gasoline causeing it to burn more completely and thus gaining more power with less fuel, more fuel efficient, less waste etc. Alcohol has a higher surface tension than gasoline, thus causing even more surface tension, more droplets that go unburned, less power, more waste and more fuel needed to do the same work. Aside from other bad things alcohol does like attract moisture, it just isn't a good fuel additive. But, there's huge money in it, government money going to huge corn farms in mid America, big money going back into pockets in government officials to push it as a "good" alternative fuel.

Mythbusters had a segment on adding acetone to gasoline and busted the myth saying it caused the engines not to run as good, and the gas mileage went down. But, I have read several reports that claimed that Mythbusters had been told to do what ever it took to make that experiment come out bad, by higher ups. Basically strong armed into bungling the experiment, probably by adding too much acetone, which will have an adverse effect. I'm going to do my own testing with acetone starting with minimal amounts, smaller than the ratio that is claimed by those who swear by it, and see if it has any effect on the mileage on my bike. Since I ride every day, I put gas in it about every two or three days so it will be easy to test. I'll see what I come up with and report back!
 

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Once Banned
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Back to my question, since SeaFoam is mostly alcohol, won't that make it bad for combustion? I can answer that myself. It's not just alcohol, it's naptha, too. With that comes the next question, does adding naptha to ethanol make it burn better?

As to the calculations you did, Fergy, I think the point Wormwood was trying to make is that not only is the gas cheaper, but the tax incentives given to the consumer help lower the cost. It depends on the state. I know that for a about a year, Arizona would buy you a vehicle and convert it to propane, if you would use it (or something to that effect). I have a friend that got a free Ford Expedition out of the deal. Fortunately for AZ (unfortunately for the consumer), they changed their minds about the deal before a bunch of people had a chance to get one of the free vehicles. The point I'm getting to is this, even if propane gave poor fuel economy, and it was more expensive than gasoline, it was still cheaper for the consumer because their "tax incentive" was receiving a free vehicle.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
All I wanted to do was point out an article about ethanol in our fuel and the effects it has on our fuel systems..... and why Sea Foam was a good idea!!!:doh:

BTW.... what oil do you use..... what ever it is.... it's the wrong stuff! :BLAM:
 

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Hey 95, How's your 440 compare to your 750? My last bike was a 440. I loved it, and it was a lot smoother than my 750 - until my one of the balancers broke a tooth(or the chain slipped). Then it was smooth as silk, buzzzzzz, smooth, buzzzz. How does the power compare?
 
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