[Wolfie]

I think I was misread, or probably just stated my point improperly.....I used a "20 something" as an example....a "50 something" can be just as inexperienced......

Im just saying that most of these "instructors" have less than 6 yrs riding time under their belts.....around here, thats a fact....I asked specifically....because I hate ripoffs....i actually contacted the DMV and found out the requirements to get an "instructors" Certification.....its a JOKE !....

Id like to see one of these clowns lay a bike down on gravel in a turn, then stand it back up and keep goin......

Im outta this thread, and I'll pray for those who swear by "classes"....

 

[rsavant]

Having taken the class, I won't say I "swear by" the course but I will say it helped in an aspect of riding in which I was weak. I also think that no matter how experienced or educated one is, there is always someone more experienced and educated from whom we can learn.

As for learning from a more experienced rider, that's exactly what the instructor was. He was an ex motorcycle cop, therefore having formal training and probably more hours and miles in the saddle than many of us ever will. He was probably late forties so he was hardly a snot nosed twenty something riding a crotch rocket.

As an example, one of the riders taking the course was a guy who was probably the oldest of the group. He said he'd beaten a long illness and celebrated by buying a bike. When we began the maneuvers, the guy struggled mightily. By the end of the course, utilizing the techniques provided by the instructor, he was doing much better. He still needed lots of practice, but there was definite improvement.

I will say I thought the course was a bit overpriced, but nothing says we have to take it. Sure, had it been $50 less, I would've thought it was a bargain. The instructor will allow us to participate in future courses for one year at no charge. And it was fun.

Finally, how many of us can turn the front wheel to the stop and make 360 turns within a 16 foot circle without taking our feet off the footrest? The instructor could.

Wolfie's attack on those of us who pay for a formal course to improve our skills so that we ride more safely was unwarranted. I thought we had a brotherhood here.

 

[Mercury]

But....when the "pro" has less than 10 yrs riding time than you (30), how are they "pros" ? ....its bullsheit for the lazy....

...its all yuppie crap to take yer money.....road time is the best teacher....fook these classes.....we didnt have em back then, didnt need em....ya learned from mistakes and at worst a lil roadrash.....its all yuppie BS....same as the clowns that take driving lessons....what a farce and waste of money.....

If ya need lessons....stay the fook home....offa bike and even car.....most idiots can drive a car....nowadays though, they teach on automatics....WTF ?

Anyone who can drive a standard trans car, and can ride a bicycle (ballance), can ride a bike....these classes are for idiots....Ive said that before and I'll say it again.....if you need lessons for a motorcycle, yet can balance on a bicycle and drive a car....only a moron would go for classes....waste of money....spend it on gas.....

In my personal opinion...its stupid stuff like this that gets people on the road on a bike when they got no business being there.....

Some "got it", some "never will"....but these "classes" make those who shouldnt be on a bike, think they can be.....pure bullsheit.....thats gets people hurt or killed.....

I stand by my every statement....ban me if ya want....but these classes give a rider a "false sense", which gets them into the sheit.....thats why 90% of motorcycle deaths are new riders , less than 1 year....

These yuppie azzholes started this stuff when biking got popular....all they want is your money.....you will die being trained by them.....

The BEST training, is to ride with a seasoned rider, and have him teach you....

Dont succumb to these scumbags....they only want yer money....they dont know squat either....

wholly smokes, lots written by somebody who has no clue about these courses having never taken one.

Personally I have taken the basic, the advanced, and the ride like a pro course.

Wolf, as a friend and a riding buddy I would like to show you what I learned in these courses. Sure riding time is great to have, I have over 60K miles under my belt.

When I took the ride like a pro I had 40K miles under my belt. What I learned at that course I have not learned in 40K miles, I suspect I never would.

Say what you want but I can take my bike at full lock and scrape the boards doing < 4 mph, using the friction zone.

We tried to get you out to practice with us, we will have time again this year. Put your poor attitude towards courses to the test.

You think people driving like this comes from road experience?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9MVY8swO5M

Wrong, it comes from having a logical approach on the skills necessary to complete a task.

Ask Anthony how well I turned around in your road when we went for that ride on Tuesday, feet on the boards, friction zone, never put my feet down. Watched Anthony do it, feet spread out, jerky movements, nothing against him, but the course taught me that.

You had lots to say about the people in the courses.

Ride like a pro is taught by state police officers who MUST have passed extremely difficult courses that (sorry to say this) you don't have a prayer of passing. I see how you turn around and handle slow speed operation, I am not saying I am better I am saying the instructors are.

its the old gag, you can learn how to do things your own way your whole life, but there is a right way to learn things, if you learn how to do things the right way, you learn them faster and can increase your skill level at a parabolic rate.

I mean, look at me, I am willing to try it out, I bet I can handle slow speed operations better than you, lets try it, you have 40 years of riding, I have 7.... what do ya say wolfster?

I got the cones and everything, we can even have Anthony record it. I actually hope you do better cause then you won't loose any of your great reputation.

Just by watching a rider ride I can tell about 70% of the time weather they have taken the courses or not.

I took the course to help me reduce points on my license from speeding, I really liked it, and so I took more courses, I plan on taking the two up course.

Kenny

 

[Mercury]

Having taken the class, I won't say I "swear by" the course but I will say it helped in an aspect of riding in which I was weak. I also think that no matter how experienced or educated one is, there is always someone more experienced and educated from whom we can learn.

As for as learning from a more experienced rider, that's exactly what the instructor was. He was an ex motorcycle cop, therefore having formal training and probably more hours and miles in the saddle than any of us ever will. He was probably late forties so he was hardly a snot nosed twenty something riding a crotch rocket.

As an example, one of the riders taking the course was a guy who was probably the oldest of the group. He said he'd beaten a long illness and celebrated by buying a bike. When we began the maneuvers, the guy struggled mightily. By the end of the course, utilizing the techniques provided by the instructor, he was doing much better. He still needed lots of practice, but there was definite improvement.

I will say I thought the course was a bit overpriced, but nothing says we have to take it. Sure, had it been $50 less, I would've thought it was a bargain. The instructor will allow us to participate in future courses for one year at no charge. And it was fun.

Finally, how many of us can turn the front wheel to the stop and make 360 turns within a 16 foot circle without taking our feet off the footrest? The instructor could.

Wolfie's attack on those of us who pay for a formal course to improve our skills so that we ride more safely was unwarranted. I thought we had a brotherhood here.

you asked me where I took my course.... It was from ridelikeapro.com they had a course in NJ I forget exactly where - the paper work is home.

Wolfies post upset me to the point of me having to respond. Courses are not useless, I learned a lot, and that was AFTER having put on a bunch of miles.

On average I have done about 10K a year in the last 7 years, not too many people ride that much. I can say with 100% certainty in 70K miles I still did not learn some of the things those courses taught me.

is it possible to get a bad instructor here and there - yeah sure, but I took 3 classes and have not. I can't wait for the 2 up class!
Kenny

 

[Mercury]

Finally, how many of us can turn the front wheel to the stop and make 360 turns within a 16 foot circle without taking our feet off the footrest? The instructor could.

Before the Ride like a pro course I could not, during the course I was not only able to do exactly that, but I was able to go at full lock and scrape the floorboard, it was an awesome feeling, maintaining control at such slow speeds.

ah well... I think the courses are worth it. You can never have too much knowledge around bikes, I think they should force all drivers (CAR) to take motorcycle courses (at least the basic one).



as for wolfies claims about new riders, its true most accidents are from new motorcycle riders...

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2012/04/17/243879.htm

but if you read the article those riders explain how much better they are after taking a class.

Not looking to start a war here, but at least back up claims with facts.

My facts exist in my melted floorboards. I was able to scrape floorboards after the basic course, during the advanced they said what do you want to learn, I said I want to learn how to scrape my right boards better. The instructor laughed and said this is not the course for that but maintain head and eyes and push that handle bar and you will get it, sure enough with their coaching I did.

the ride like a pro was all slow speed stuff, I am glad I took these courses cause it will help me when I go from my 600lb bike to a 900lb Goldwing haha


kenny

 

[kc2dgq]

Ask Anthony how well I turned around in your road when we went for that ride on Tuesday, feet on the boards, friction zone, never put my feet down. Watched Anthony do it, feet spread out, jerky movements, nothing against him, but the course taught me that.

ouch!! them bus wheels hurt bro...lol

It's all good Ken, I agree with most of what you posted, I for one never took the class, but certainly learned from our one session in the lot with the cones set up. I admit I could certainly learn from it even though I have been riding for 30 years myself.

If you are not open to learn...you never progress.

 

[Mercury]

ouch!! them bus wheels hurt bro...lol

It's all good Ken, I agree with most of what you posted, I for one never took the class, but certainly learned from our one session in the lot with the cones set up. I admit I could certainly learn from it even though I have been riding for 30 years myself.

If you are not open to learn...you never progress.

I had to throw somebody under the bus. You did see me turn around there right!? I usually get better as I ride more each season too. Love slow speed stuff.

You did great. But wanted you to support my example.

 

[goofin]

at 50 i took the pa msc and learned a few tips that have came in handy. riding since age 7, racing mx, drags and trials i thought i was a pro. everyone who took the course admitted to learning new things or being refreshed on simple things they forgot.
this summer im taking the advanced class and providing i pass that, i have two instructors that will recommend me for the instructor position. if accepted i have to put in 100 hours of additional training in and out of the classroom. it also pays about 20 bucks a hour to boot

 

[Mercury]

Thanks goofin, that is exactly my point, the classes don't hurt.

It is bad enough out there, best to have as much knowledge and lighting as possible to keep the cages from killing us.

Kenny

 

[bstew7890]

I never took a basic rider course; I was 18 and taught myself and traded the bike for a car a year later. Twenty something years later I got another bike, but with a little more awareness that I'm not invincible. I found the www.msgroup.org web page and reading that put my skills up a notch. I later read Proficient Motorcycling, and Total Control, which are both excellent. A year ago I took the ARC course at the local Harley Davidson dealership. The instructor was in his 60s, had been riding all his life, and had toured coast to coast. I didn't learn anything new exactly, but refreshed some things I had sort of known about but forgotten, and it gave me a chance to push my limits in scraping pegs. I would take it again, just to keep my skills up.

 

[GloryRider]

I took the Advanced course, and now I can ride like this!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPGUUc1pyAY

Just kidding... but seriously, learning the techniques in the Ride Like a Pro class really improved my riding skills! I was self-taught 5 years ago, and have a lot of miles under my belt, and most of that was commuting in traffic and tight streets in downtown Atlanta, but I still learned a ton from the course!

Would recommend it to everyone!

 

[Wolfie]

Wolfie's attack on those of us who pay for a formal course to improve our skills so that we ride more safely was unwarranted. I thought we had a brotherhood here.

....So....file a complaint with management.....lol


Be VERY careful in your wording from now on please.......I addressed the SUBJECT, not the poster(s).......but now YOU have addressed ME specifically, and have accused me of wrongdoing......be very careful in the future please....

Rule of thumb on ALL messageboards, and even one on one conversations...."address/attack the post/subject....NOT the poster".....

Please strive to stick to the subject and not single out individuals....as that is a violation of TOS....

Comments to others are normal...but your actual statement is accusatory and derrogatory.......Im waiting....if ya know what I mean....and no, not just because Im a mod....Im talkin normal member to member....I guess I need to make this sheit clear now whan Im speaking as a mod, or just me.....some folks couldnt differentiate....

 

[rsavant]

Wolfie, you surprise me. I thought we could have a difference of opinion here, which is what this is. You said these classes are for idiots, implying that only idiots take them. Isn't that a personal attack on those of us who have taken a class? You said to attack the post, not the poster.

You said my comment addressed you specifically, and was accusatory and derogatory. What exactly have I accused you of? And what was derogatory? I didn't call you a name, I just said your attack was unwarranted. If you had said listening to classical music and voting Republican (which I do) is for idiots that would be your opinion. It would be my opinion that an attack on those who listen to classical music and vote Republican would be unwarranted.

If you look back at the other posts by those of us who've taken a course like Ride Like A Pro, we were all surprised by your comments and we all defended the course as having been useful and beneficial. If you think the courses are a waste of money, you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

It's not my intention to alienate or offend anyone on the forum. I really enjoy he forum and check in pretty much daily. I assume when you quoted me and said I need to be very careful in what I write, you are threatening to block me from being able to post. As an administrator or mod I guess that's your prerogative. But over a difference of opinion? Really?

 

[Knifemaker]

Wow this thread went a bit wild eh?

Just a few points from me (you can call it "just my opinion")

1. As much as you think you know, you can always learn something new.
This can be a good thing when your life might depend on it.

2. Classes are not always taught by "Pro" riders, but the curriculum was created by a whole group of professional riders....that likely do have some information you might not have learned yourself.

3. New riders don't get die because they have a "false sence of security" from
taking a rider course. They die because they did something wrong. How many new riders didn't die because what they learned saved them? Don't toss figures out that exsist only in your mind. I can say easily say riders courses have saved more lives than destroyed them....but how can I back up something that didn't happen? No one reports accidents that almost happened....

4. And it is insulting to say such courses are a waste of money. Not to just the folks that take them (and even say they learned something) but also to the folks that worked hard to create them with the hope of saving a few lives.

5. Almost every insurance company gives you a discount if you're a new rider and have taken a riders training course. They don't do this willy nilly, they do this because they have figures to show riders that take the course are less likely to have an accident. I have a freind that's an accurary for an insurance co. They don't do ANYTHING without figures to support it.
So...even just getting a discount on your insurance can be a good reason to take a course.

 

[jpuckett]

I'm of a much younger generation than most here I believe... (I'm 22) and I'd love to add my points.

I have been riding since I was 17 (less than 5 years), and I have about 30k+ Miles under my belt.

Before my Old Man would let me buy a bike (I was a minor and he had to sign for it) he mandated I take the MSC classes. I knew how to ride before that (Dirt Bikes and a few friends street bikes).

But the classes taught me at an accelerated rate a lot of things that have, maybe not saved my life, but saved me from going down at least 10+ times.

Things that aren't common sense to a new rider, like it is safer to speed up in a turn than brake... I don't know how many times I've been in turn when I was new that felt to sharp for me and all my gut instincts say BRAKE! But sticking to what I learned in the classes I focused on the point I was trying to hit and slowly accelerated. Pulling out perfectly.

I can also think of the first time I slammed on my brakes and caused my rear tire to skid... If it hadn't been for the class I could have lifted off the the brake with the forks locked and gotten really hurt.

The classes are good with out a doubt, and they have saved me.

But Wolfie has a really valid point. Experience has taught me even more!

The first time I laid down my bike is what taught me to respect the road, no class could do that...

The first time I had a driver try to run me off the road taught me to be visible and polite to the cagers, and while a class could say that to me, nothing would sink it in like that fear of hitting the guard rail.


According to most estimates I have read I have more miles in my short time than the average 'rider' of quadruple my years, and due to me not having a car for a few years of that I have been through snow, sleet, hail, rain, subzero temps, and beautiful days! I love riding and feel I am good at it, but any rider who feels they have something to share or teach me; I will happily listen to see if they have valid points to contribute.

Just a humble 22 year old's thoughts,
Brother Puck

 

[thtanner]

I suggest Total Control; it's a great book for all riding styles.

 

[Wolfie]

But Wolfie has a really valid point. Experience has taught me even more!

The first time I laid down my bike is what taught me to respect the road, no class could do that...

Thanks Puck.....you are wiser than yer years.....and my gripe was not so much the class, but the content....how often do you need to ride at 4mph ?...cones dont exist on the road...cages and lightpoles do....gravel does....

And I stated it earlier in this thread, this course is great fer the complete noob....but if ya ridden any time at all, ya already know a lot, else ya'd be sittin in a cast.....

Just sayin that many of these courses are designed fer the fledgelings, and others who take it are IMO wasting money....you develop yer own riding style after a few years...it may not meet the "book standard", but it works fer you...and on a bike, thats what counts....

Merc mentioned that he couldnt scrape his floorboards w/o this course...and he'll bitch slap me next time I see him, but IMO, thats unsafe riding....so this is a course that teaches unsafe riding....why does anyone need to take a severe curve that fast ?... (you keep quiet Dawg, lol)...

Just sayin, I bitched about a personal attack...and Im against these courses (many of em anyway)....

There is a school for High Performance driving...Bob Bondurant (sp?)...this type of "teaching" should be only for the advanced....as that school is...why doesnt this course specify "years of riding" prior to registering ?....

....answer..... $$$$$$$

 

[WilliamTech]

Thanks Puck.....you are wiser than yer years.....and my gripe was not so much the class, but the content....how often do you need to ride at 4mph ?...cones dont exist on the road...cages and lightpoles do....gravel does....

And I stated it earlier in this thread, this course is great fer the complete noob....but if ya ridden any time at all, ya already know a lot, else ya'd be sittin in a cast.....

Just sayin that many of these courses are designed fer the fledgelings, and others who take it are IMO wasting money....you develop yer own riding style after a few years...it may not meet the "book standard", but it works fer you...and on a bike, thats what counts....

Merc mentioned that he couldnt scrape his floorboards w/o this course...and he'll bitch slap me next time I see him, but IMO, thats unsafe riding....so this is a course that teaches unsafe riding....why does anyone need to take a severe curve that fast ?... (you keep quiet Dawg, lol)...

Just sayin, I bitched about a personal attack...and Im against these courses (many of em anyway)....

There is a school for High Performance driving...Bob Bondurant (sp?)...this type of "teaching" should be only for the advanced....as that school is...why doesnt this course specify "years of riding" prior to registering ?....

....answer..... $$$$$$$

It 's always 'bout the $ $ $ but....

:BLAM::BLAM::BLAM:

 

[Knifemaker]

Well money aside, I think you need to understand Wolf that not everyone is as smart as you.. I have met riders with "years of experience" that say they learned something from a class. I've also met riders that claim they taught themselves to ride decades ago and there's nothing left to learn....look at me like I'm a crazy person when I mention countersteering. "Turn left to go right? You're freaking nuts!! Ha Ha Ha"

I still see folks that brake wrong, are afraid of the front brake, and downshift improperly even though they been riding for years. So some formal teaching can help them....
As I'm not entirely sure what each and every course covers, I can't say to what degree they are helpful. But it's wrong to throw them all out with one blanket generalization.
Beginners course are most times for beginners.
And most advanced courses are for advanced riders....(Duh)
But if one long time rider says he learned something from a beginners course it crushes that generalization......

 

[Wolfie]

I guess Im just too old school fer all this new stuff...helps too, that I started jumpin bicycles at 10...minibikes at 12....and raced motocross and flattrack....I suppose not many out there have done the same....especially the younger folks....(means I been takin things to the limit fer over 45 yrs)...

Merc asked me and KC if we wanted to go to a 2-up course....I was like....why ?....I was ridin 2 up before you were born, lol...not to diss Merc....

IMO...confidence in yerself is just as important as courses....and mebbe nowadays, some need the courses to get that confidence.....so...mebbe a self confidence course shoud be a prerequisite ?...