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interesting, what does one who has 0 experience with a lock up do when the abs fails? Or the battery decides to die, killing the bike, doesn't the abs work off a battery or running engine?


just wondering, abs is great but in essence it forces people to rely even more on technology that may fail, reverting to the old standard.

kenny
 

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Discussion Starter #3
interesting, what does one who has 0 experience with a lock up do when the abs fails? Or the battery decides to die, killing the bike, doesn't the abs work off a battery or running engine?


just wondering, abs is great but in essence it forces people to rely even more on technology that may fail, reverting to the old standard.

kenny
Sorry, but "what if ?" Logic is kinda ridiculous....what if the ABS fails? You stop the bike the same way you would without it, and because you did have it you've learned to stop quicker. Still a win win.
You can use the same arguement with "power brakes" or "power steering"....

Aren't the odds of having something built for safety not working when you need it thousands of times smaller than working when you do?

You might as well say why wear a helmet....:doh:
 

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Sorry, but "what if ?" Logic is kinda ridiculous....what if the ABS fails? You stop the bike the same way you would without it, and because you did have it you've learned to stop quicker. Still a win win.
You can use the same arguement with "power brakes" or "power steering"....

Aren't the odds of having something built for safety not working when you need it thousands of times smaller than working when you do?

You might as well say why wear a helmet....:doh:
The point is people are learning to rely on technology without knowing how to handle a situation if the technology was not there (such as ABS) or traction control. Hopefully they do not start making the riding courses allowed to be taken on ABS bikes, or training courses on ABS bikes.

You could use the same example on power steering or power brakes, I agree, I know I have trained myself to be able to muscle a vehicle that lost power, I drove down a 2 mile fairly large hill with no power steering or brakes.

While we are talking about it (4 wheels), when I first got my license the first thing my father did was take me into a parking lot which was snow covered got me into a fish tail and taught me how to get out of it. This was a time when parents were parents, I have great parents.

I completely despise ABS systems on 4 wheel vehicles. Almost got me killed more then once.

An example:

My fathers 99 ranger had an ABS system - I was coming down a snowy road, it would not let me give much brake force at all, there was a car sideways in the road, I had no where to go but off the road or into the car, I had a wild idea, since it was in 4wd I figured I would whack the E brake down, causing the wheels to lock up, and that would cause the snow on the road to build up under the tires, it worked and I ended up stopping just a few feet before nailing the side ways car - ABS fail. But you never hear about stories like this, the ones you hear about are ones that are titled :"ranger hits car in snow storm, owner of ranger claims he couldn't stop in time"


Lets look at when ABS will be used on the motorcycle. Only when it is straight up, cause if you try to do an emergency stop in a curve, ABS is the least of your worries. Speaking of emergency stops, that is the only time ABS really comes into play unless you hit an oil patch on the road, and at a higher speed by the time the ABS wakes up you are past the oil patch anyway.

Now when will ABS really come in handy - when you are straight up AND when the road surface / traction is poor, and when an emergency stop is necessary. So we are talking about what percentage of riding time? Shouldn't you be driving with more distance anyway if the road conditions are poor?

You know how I check the road conditions? I lock up my rear brake, that tells me how much or how little traction I have. I guess the ABS system will tell you too at when it activates but it would surely be a learning curve for me.

The fact is ABS may give people false confidence to ride faster when they should not be, just like the idiots in 4wd trucks and SUV's in a snow storm, always see them in a ditch.

ABS is not going to help you in a curve, and in a curve I think that is the most dangerous place for an oil patch or low adhesion conditions to occur because there is not much room, you are already leaned over one way, you only can go the other way. Straight up you have options - STOP, lean right, lean left. In a curve you can only choose one, ABS does not help at all in a curve.

I personally just don't see the cost / benefit leaning severely to the ABS side.

I never drove a bike with ABS, I would like to, just to see how it is, but none of the bikes I buy are going to have it, I am just not in that 'price range'.

this video shows on dry pavement (which I would say most people are riding on 95% of the time) proper braking technique blows away just moshing the brakes and letting abs do the work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5wqqg97r4E

Just wanted to defend my case of why ABS while wonderful, is not necessary.

Kenny
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
You can defend your case all you want but it's horribly weak.
First off you haven't ridden a bike with ABS.
Second... You keep bringing up cars (I don't) as I've already said there is no comparison between the two. (Have you driven a NEW car with ABS?...the technology is better than it was 10 years ago)

Yes, ABS on a bike would likely rarely if ever be needed. But that is the exact purpose here, to have it when you do need it. Kinda like carrying a gun....or wearing a helmet.....just so nice to have it when it's needed.

Not every biker rides on nice dry days, and not every biker has years of experiance to know what to do in every situation.

I've lost track on how many posts I've read through the years basicly saying their ABS saved their ass. If only ONE life is saved each year because of it, I'd not be so fast to say its "not necessary".

I doubt anyone is "dependant" on it or belvieves they are safer....especially when you wouldn't even know the bike had ABS until the exact moment you needed it.
Anything that makes a bike safer and helps the rider live to ride again is worthwhile.
Saying we are dependant on technology as a bad thing is silly. We depend on "technology" everyday....like that electric sensor in your hot water heater that keeps it from blowing up your house.... To the keyboard you're using right now to share your opinion... ;)



A worthwhile read:
http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html






KM
 

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You can defend your case all you want but it's horribly weak.
First off you haven't ridden a bike with ABS.
Second... You keep bringing up cars (I don't) as I've already said there is no comparison between the two. (Have you driven a NEW car with ABS?...the technology is better than it was 10 years ago)

Yes, ABS on a bike would likely rarely if ever be needed. But that is the exact purpose here, to have it when you do need it. Kinda like carrying a gun....or wearing a helmet.....just so nice to have it when it's needed.

Not every biker rides on nice dry days, and not every biker has years of experiance to know what to do in every situation.

I've lost track on how many posts I've read through the years basicly saying their ABS saved their ass. If only ONE life is saved each year because of it, I'd not be so fast to say its "not necessary".

I doubt anyone is "dependant" on it or belvieves they are safer....especially when you wouldn't even know the bike had ABS until the exact moment you needed it.
Anything that makes a bike safer and helps the rider live to ride again is worthwhile.
Saying we are dependant on technology as a bad thing is silly. We depend on "technology" everyday....like that electric sensor in your hot water heater that keeps it from blowing up your house.... To the keyboard you're using right now to share your opinion... ;)



A worthwhile read:
http://www.ibmwr.org/prodreview/abstests.html






KM
First of all my case is indisputable.

I said, "ABS is great but in essence it forces people to rely even more on technology that may fail, reverting to the old standard."

That statement cannot be disputed. It is fact.

Have you ridden ABS KM?

I would love to try one, maybe it would make a believer out of me.

I bring up the cars because that is the only thing I have experience with.

well, I also have experience with 'abs' on passenger trains, but we have a much better scheme then simple 'slip / spin', metal on metal is quite a bit different then rubber on asphalt as well.


For the added cost of ABS, I just don't see it worth it to me, not only am I not interested in bikes that offer it, it is not an option I would want to pay too much extra for.

by stats... 60K + miles and I never had an emergency stop that caused me to lock up and crash.

I have an an emergency stop that caused the car behind me to nail me from behind, ABS would not help with that.

To summarize, I will say ABS appears to be wonderful, but I can say it is not for everybody pretty confidently.

(Bringing up trucks again I know) I hate when ABS activates on my truck, it feels like the whole thing is falling apart, I understand bikes are similar.

kenny
 

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Discussion Starter #7
First of all my case is indisputable.

I said, "ABS is great but in essence it forces people to rely even more on technology that may fail, reverting to the old standard."

That statement cannot be disputed. It is fact.

Have you ridden ABS KM?

I would love to try one, maybe it would make a believer out of me.

I bring up the cars because that is the only thing I have experience with.

well, I also have experience with 'abs' on passenger trains, but we have a much better scheme then simple 'slip / spin', metal on metal is quite a bit different then rubber on asphalt as well.


For the added cost of ABS, I just don't see it worth it to me, not only am I not interested in bikes that offer it, it is not an option I would want to pay too much extra for.

by stats... 60K + miles and I never had an emergency stop that caused me to lock up and crash.

I have an an emergency stop that caused the car behind me to nail me from behind, ABS would not help with that.

To summarize, I will say ABS appears to be wonderful, but I can say it is not for everybody pretty confidently.

(Bringing up trucks again I know) I hate when ABS activates on my truck, it feels like the whole thing is falling apart, I understand bikes are similar.

kenny

Yes I had ABS on my 2006 Yamaha FJR 1300. Never needed it. Never triggered it.
You're "not forced to depend on it" as far as I can see. But yes if it were to fail... (Ive read no cases where it has) Your bike would simply work like a bike without it. So if that's "your case" you're just pointing out the obvious It's just a safety feature. Many have been saved by it. I think if it was raining and a deer ran out in front of me it could likely justify the added expence... Given what an average cost of repair is.....On most bikes right now, it's an option. Many adventure bikes allow you to switch it off.

If you see no need for it ...fine. But you're an exception. You're also boasting that your skill will always save you. Not always the case I'm afraid.



But I'm not trying to sell you on it. ;) ...just trying to point out to others here the benifits might be something they should examine.
 

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Yes I had ABS on my 2006 Yamaha FJR 1300. Never needed it. Never triggered it.
You're "not forced to depend on it" as far as I can see. But yes if it were to fail... (Ive read no cases where it has) Your bike would simply work like a bike without it. So if that's "your case" you're just pointing out the obvious It's just a safety feature. Many have been saved by it. I think if it was raining and a deer ran out in front of me it could likely justify the added expence... Given what an average cost of repair is.....On most bikes right now, it's an option. Many adventure bikes allow you to switch it off.

If you see no need for it ...fine. But you're an exception. You're also boasting that your skill will always save you. Not always the case I'm afraid.



But I'm not trying to sell you on it. ;) ...just trying to point out to others here the benifits might be something they should examine.
My skill is not better then a functioning ABS system, but my skill IS better then an ABS system that has failed.

There are lots of what if's as far as if it will be needed or not.

People can and should look into it and see if they want to spend the extra money or not.

I can't justify it. But it will be my luck I will be driving home from work today, I try to emergency stop because I see a wolf or something and there just so happens to be an oil patch there.

If this all happens maybe I will look at getting it on the next bike, but my next bike is going to be a GL1500 used, I don't think they had ABS, and if they did it is old technology any how

Good thread though

kenny
 

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Adding more un-necessary technology to bikes or cars just means the price tag and cost for repairs shoot way up..

Consider this, if everything got so updated technology wise, then when the technology fails, the users will be so used to using it and wont know what to do without it..
For example....in 20 yrs from now, ask someone if they know how to use a Vinyl Record Player??

Put someone who all they have known is a car with power steering into an older car without it, and see how well they drive it.

All the sensors, electronics, etc in vehicles make them more complicated and more prone to breaking down...cuz if one little wire or sensor goes bad the whole vehicle will run like crap...
Ask me how i know??
Hmm my 99 Ranger has whats called an EGR valve and a DPFE Sensor, the sensor went bad...the truck ran like crap....and the sensor cost $89 to replace...in older vehicles this EGR and sensor isnt needed...
And consider all the O2 sensors and etc...
Myself, i like the old 80s and older vehicles, very little electronics and no computers, and easy to work on, less to go wrong, and many many of them are still running today...while i can go to my local junkyards and see tons and tons of newer dead vehicles...most just have bad engines...like the old saying "they dont make them as good as they use to"
and why is this?? because they want you to bring it in to have it fixed, and they want you to buy a new vehicle or motorcycle every few years..

ABS on a bike may be a cool "luxury" feature, but its not needed....
My old school drum and disk brakes stop me just fine..

Just my two cents.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I didn't expect this to turn into an ABS disscussion, but hey, no one was going to touch on the "loud pipes save lives thing".....lol

Just to make this clear....ABS systems on motorcycles are all built with a failsafe that if something goes wrong with the system, the bike simply functions like a bike that does not have ABS. So on the FJR....which had outstanding disc brakes to start with, you'd still have a bike with outstanding brakes.

And sorry, part of the reason they "don't make them like they used to" is because THAT technology sucked...

Cars, bikes, whatever ....are safer, lighter, faster, and more efficiant. Dismissing useful technology because you fear it will fail is mainly being paranoid. Chicken Little Syndrome.
Oddly folks still shove crap in their mouths and risk having their heart fail in them...... but still bitch about the 100 dollar O2 sensor... LOL

And I'm not sure I'd call anything that makes one safer a "luxury"....as your attempting to put a price on your own life.
 

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Some people just don't like change... especially when it comes to new technology. This type of mindset is something I was even taught at school about "If this has been working for me for so many years, why would I change it?". Something very common for an Industrial Engineer to encounter. There's just no easy way to go about it. But, like you've said many times now Knifemaker, each person will choose their own level of protection that they're comfortable with. I know that saying "it doesn't work" versus saying "I choose not to use it" are two different things, but oh well, can't get everyone to agree.


Looking at the article, I think it was already posted before... can't hurt to be reminded though.
 

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Glenn C.
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Im all for technology and change...but sometimes u gotta ask...is there really a need to "re-invent the wheel?"

Give me a frame, an engine, a seat, brakes, and a light..and i can ride...
 

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Well, no one says you can't. It's just effectiveness versus efficiency.

Regular brakes are effective because they WILL stop your vehicle.

ABS brakes are efficient because they will make your vehicle stop "better".

I don't even like the feel of ABS in cars (the very few that I've driven with ABS), but I can't argue with results.
 

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Well, no one says you can't. It's just effectiveness versus efficiency.

Regular brakes are effective because they WILL stop your vehicle.

ABS brakes are efficient because they will make your vehicle stop "better".

I don't even like the feel of ABS in cars (the very few that I've driven with ABS), but I can't argue with results.
Thats funny, my earlier post shows that on dry pavement non abs stops 'better'.

Just saying.

kenny
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Thats funny, my earlier post shows that on dry pavement non abs stops 'better'.

Just saying.

kenny
In the hands of an experianced rider.

The other rider seemed to purposely trigger the ABS when perhaps he didn't need to. No statements were made on the skill level of that rider either.

But yes, I believe even the study I linked to said a expert rider can stop a bike quicker on clean dry pavement faster than a somewhat experianced rider can on an ABS equipped bike.
But that's not the point. The kicker is the first time rider with zero experiance can stop an ABS bike in a shorter distance than an expert rider can stop his non ABS bike when the road is slick.
Which means on a wet road an ABS bike will ALWAYS out brake a non ABS bike....no matter who's riding what.


I'll also add that the National Highway saftey folks and...importantly...insurance companies seem to have found out that overall, ABS on a bike reduces the odds of a fatal crash:
http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/pdf/mf2042.pdf

If it reduces your chances of dying... I'd call that "better"....
 

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In the hands of an experianced rider.

The other rider seemed to purposely trigger the ABS when perhaps he didn't need to. No statements were made on the skill level of that rider either.

But yes, I believe even the study I linked to said a expert rider can stop a bike quicker on clean dry pavement faster than a somewhat experianced rider can on an ABS equipped bike.
But that's not the point. The kicker is the first time rider with zero experiance can stop an ABS bike in a shorter distance than an expert rider can stop his non ABS bike when the road is slick.
Which means on a wet road an ABS bike will ALWAYS out brake a non ABS bike....no matter who's riding what.
True statements there, but I would hate to dismiss the fact that ABS is not the best thing since sliced bread in all cases.

Is it better in most cases - sure. Is it cost effective - depends on the person making the purchase, Does it have room for improvement - obviously if an experienced rider can do better then it can.

Why can't they take the inputs from an experienced rider and incorporate them into the abs?

I think I may know why, or at least partially... because you would need very high powered microprocessor controls to be able to read such a high pulse per revolution speed signal. You need such high resolution to detect just the slightest wheel skid. This means lots of teeth on a tone ring and speed sensor and it means lots of filtering for noise. It also means lots of processing power not only to read the speed signal but to process it, and send that out to the brake system.

Just sayin.

Hey none of the gold wing 1500's had abs did they?

Kenny
 

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The more tech there is, the more there is to fail...and thats a plain fact....
More parts, more elements into the total, the more chances of failure....simple is dependable, albeit not always overly efficient....efficiency comes from what I call "Garage Tech"....and thats where most innovations are born....

...now...the 2 of you, you know who, knock it the fook off....both of you jump right on the defensive....no longer becomes a discussion then...becomes an "I can shout louder than you".....
In a discussion, present facts (documented), opinions (backed up by experience), then conclusions for statements....neither one of you were ever on a HS debate team were ya, lolol..... ;) Note : Ive mentioned no names....
 

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Not to mention the fact, if I need to unload the bike, I need to lock up the rear. You have to 'throw' the bike sideways.

I have done this before. I watched the bike go underneath a car while I dealt with some blacktop.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I don't think I was being defensive. I did in fact give links to two diffrent studies...one on actual testing of ABS bikes, and one from an insurance/National Highway and Safety study that showed ABS is in fact saving lives.

Keep in mind the study of the bikes themselves is old. ABS systems have improved.

I do know ABS was an option on the Honda Goldwings... Just not sure when this was first offered.

I'm also not sure if you can distill the knowledge,skill,feelings or senses of an expert rider and transfer them into a machine. They haven't been able to build a robot that can ride a motorcycle in the first place, much less mimic the ability of someone like Valentino Rossi.

But under the right circumstances ABS does outperform a human. Melding the two would of course be a compromise, and that's what we have at this time.

And those Wolf... are the facts...
 
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