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Ive read about this topic in the verses and many other places but I just want to make sure I have one simple fact correct.

If I buy an antifreeze at say autozone that says 50/50 then do I or do I not still need to put distilled water in it.

I am pretty sure I dont. Thats the point of 50 50 correct?

Also.. I need to make sure its safe for aluminum and has no silicates.... correct?

Thanks

Jay
 

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Keep in mind the 50/50 stuff costs about 80% of what pure antifreeze does. A gallon of distilled water costs less than a dollar locally. Much cheaper to make your own 50/50 mix, although not as convenient.
 

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Old Twistie Sticks Rider
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Keep in mind the 50/50 stuff costs about 80% of what pure antifreeze does. A gallon of distilled water costs less than a dollar locally. Much cheaper to make your own 50/50 mix, although not as convenient.
Exactly, and I always mix up to near 75%, remember it's also a coolant and that ups power a bit, then there is the fact if need be you can top off with a bit of water later if necessary, and still be 50/50 or above...
Have a good one...Old Dog...
 

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Exactly, and I always mix up to near 75%, remember it's also a coolant and that ups power a bit, then there is the fact if need be you can top off with a bit of water later if necessary, and still be 50/50 or above...
Have a good one...Old Dog...
Actually, antifreeze is not a coolant. If fact antifreeze has less ability to transfer heat than water, making antifreeze a poor coolant. The purpose of antifreeze is to extend temperature range. The water is responsible for the bulk of the heat transfer. That is why a 50/50 mix is recognized as 'optimal' for both hot weather cooling (increased boiling point of approx. 230F) and freeze protection (down to approx. -30F). Also, a 70% antifreeze mix is the recognized as a maximum for most antifreeze manufacturers and (I'm quoting from the link below) "the beneficial effect of raising the boiling point ends with about 70-percent antifreeze. During the summer, engines will run warmer to hotter; therefore, as the percentage of antifreeze increases, heat transfer decreases because antifreeze has a lower specific heat than water". The maximum 70% mix may be good for someone living above the Arctic Circle, but overkill for the Lower 48 and probably a bad idea (based on the science) for those folks living in hot climates.

Here is a link to the scientific mumbo-jumbo from an engineer (see explanation of figure #3).
 

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The best "compromise" for a coolant is definitely a 50/50 of ethylene glycol and water. for a motorcycle it has to be silicate free, the silicates will destroy the water pump mechanical seal. You also need to use distilled water, which you can get at the local Walmart for $.66 a gallon. Water from a faucet contains minerals and acids which will corrode the engine and radiator, and plug everything up. It won't happen overnight, it takes a couple of years, but the results can be disasterous. I have worked on way to many "swamp coolers" that were completely eaten up by the alkali in the water. Corrosion is like cancer, once started, it can only be gotten rid of by removing ALL of it, difficult to do when you can't get to it.


One thing I have had very poor performance from is "engine ice" I tried it because I live in AZ, and it gets HOT here. But what I found was, it takes longer for the engine to warm up, causing unnecessary idling, it runs just as hot as with ethylene glycol once warmed up, but it cools off faster when the engine has been shut off for just a little while, often requiring it to be warmed up again after sitting for just a couple of hours. Never had those issues with ethlylene glycol.

BTW, ethylene glycol is most definitely a coolant. DO NOT run your bike with plain water unless it is an emergency. Water has a MUCH lower boiling point than a 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol, and will boil under normal operating conditions. The temperature gauge, which was designed for coolant, will not show that it is overheating, because coolant would be fine at that temp. But plain water will boil, which results in uneven cooling, hot spots, and serious engine damage.
 

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Old Twistie Sticks Rider
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/\ Darn, Prestone is still lying to me, in big letters on the front of the gallon jug it is written---ANTI FREEZE/COOLANT, and yes as you state 70% is the top of the litter and protects down to-84*F and increases the boil point to 276*F...
BTW-I have no link, I'm quoting streight off Prestone's Jug...
One thing is that I am old, and did run older cars that could leak anti-freeze, and even boil over every once and again, but if I had a good strong mix 50/60-70% I could just add some water and keep on keepin on... That's why I have always run rich, just sayin... I was just statein what I do, I didn't say do as I do...lol...
Oh, and when I get a new car or truck, when that 400 CCA OEM battery dies I replace it with the best 900+CCA I can get to fit, I still remember how those old cars sounded on a very cold morning, and the cold walk that usually followed, of course sometimes we out smarted it, and parked on the hill...lol...:beerchug:...:beerchug:...
Have a good one...Old Dog...
 

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BTW, ethylene glycol is most definitely a coolant. DO NOT run your bike with plain water unless it is an emergency. Water has a MUCH lower boiling point than a 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol, and will boil under normal operating conditions. The temperature gauge, which was designed for coolant, will not show that it is overheating, because coolant would be fine at that temp. But plain water will boil, which results in uneven cooling, hot spots, and serious engine damage.
The temperature gauge, which was designed for coolant, will not show that it is overheating, because coolant would be fine at that temp??????

.....that statement is making my head hurt


Are you serious?


if the water is boiling in your motorcycle then the other parts of your cooling system are not functioning properly, you don't have enough water in the system or perhaps you just shut your motor off it's a hot day and the boiling is happening in the cylinder head for a few seconds.

R-12 DICHLORODIFLUOROMETHANE (CC12 F2 ) Dichlorodifluoromethane, commonly referred to as R-12 has a boiling point of -21.7°F (-29°C) at atmospheric pressure. ....and is a better coolant that water.....


the temperature at which water will boil is one of the reasons why it's such a good coolant.

when water boils...heat (thermal energy) is being removed.

it's a far better coolant than

ethylene glycol
 

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Old Twistie Sticks Rider
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Having worked at construction in the field I have seen water boiled in paper cone drinking cups, and have done it myself... I have also seen guys pick up a pot of boiling coffee off the coals and set it in their hands (temporarely), I have not done that...lol...
PS-If someone will stop by my house I'll give them a quart of Kawasaki Anti-Freeze, I can't find my radiator fill cap...lol...
On second thought it may not be good, it could have frozen in the unheated metal shed...lol... I heard that, is it true...???
My point bein, I'm too dumb to be technical, so I don't argue over much anymore...lol...
Have a good one...Old Dog...
 

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If only it had 6th gear..
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I hear ya on running a rich mix OD. Had my share of (cough) ..... box cars and had to do the garden hose emergency fill more than I care to recall. Even ran 90 weight in a wicked oil burnin' v8. Kept the lifter noise down too... well, when the gear oil eventually made it up there, lol. Don't miss those days :doh:.I keep the V with 50/50 or so, I don't split hairs cuz I got no hair, but thankfully the system is is good shape... on the bike.... never mind about my system ;) that'll go on a different forum.
 

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Please note my reply to this thread was in regards to Jerry’s and was only meant to advise him that he was "simply wrong"
it was not my intention to solicit a response from others
 

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One of the things antifreeze does that was not mentioned is to reduce corrosion. Aluminum does not "rust" per say, but can corrode.

If you live where it's hot, a mix of 40% antifreeze to 60% distilled water is the way to go. Although I've had to add water to a few cars in
my life.... I never had to do this on any water cooled bike... So the idea of doing a "strong mix" in case I have to add water sounds silly... As far as motorcycles are concerned.

When it gets cold... I add antifreeze.... As I do ride in winter.
 

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Please note my reply to this thread was in regards to Jerry’s and was only meant to advise him that he was "simply wrong"
it was not my intention to solicit a response from others
Sorry, not wrong. A 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and water has a much higher boiling point than water alone. At 15psi (as in a typical liquid cooling system) water boils at 212 degreesF. A 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol boils at approximately 265 degreesF. The temperature gauge is not designed to show overheating until around 265 degrees, as it is designed to be used with a PROPER antifreeze/coolant. If you use plain water, it will be boiling and causing uneven cooling and engine damage at only 212 degreesF, long before the temp gauge shows the engine is overheating. I suggest you do some research on it.

Old cars without a pressurized cooling system could indeed use plain water as coolant with no ill effects, as long as you kept putting more in. These old engines (I have a couple) were designed to run at much lower temperatures than newer engines, and their temp gauges are calibrated differently. I run mine with no t-stat, and have run one of them without a radiator cap for over 6 months, because the radiator upper tank had a minor leak that would only leak under pressure. I finally got around to replacing the radiator. You cannot do this sort of thing on a newer car, or a liquid cooled bike.
 

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Sorry, not wrong. A 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and water has a much higher boiling point than water alone. At 15psi (as in a typical liquid cooling system) water boils at 212 degreesF. A 50/50 mix of water and ethylene glycol boils at approximately 265 degreesF. <<only within the pressurized system,jerry The temperature gauge is not designed to show overheating until around 265 degrees, as it is designed to be used with a PROPER antifreeze/coolant. If you use plain water, it will be boiling and causing uneven cooling and engine damage at only 212 degreesF, long before the temp gauge shows the engine is overheating. I suggest you do some research on it.

Old cars without a pressurized cooling system could indeed use plain water as coolant with no ill effects, as long as you kept putting more in. These old engines (I have a couple) were designed to run at much lower temperatures than newer engines, and their temp gauges are calibrated differently. I run mine with no t-stat, and have run one of them without a radiator cap for over 6 months, because the radiator upper tank had a minor leak that would only leak under pressure. I finally got around to replacing the radiator. You cannot do this sort of thing on a newer car, or a liquid cooled bike.
Jerry, all your underlined quoted statements are untrue.

I'm disappointed one would write all that just to read the following...
because you've just advised how little you know about this

water boils at 212 yes...(at one atmosphere )... within a pressurized vessel however, it's boiling point increases...so @ 15 psig it's not boiling @ 212 deg f ...just thought id throw that out there...

another thing about water is that as it's temperature increases so does it's
rate of heat transfer

like i wrote before even as it's boiling (evaporating) it's doing a good job of removing heat. any plumber who's soldered some pipe will tell ya that.

and if R12 which boils at a way lower temperature than water is good at absorbing and transferring heat than why the problem with water's much higher boiling point....

water's ability to transfer heat is awesome

FACT: compared to water ethylene glycol is not a coolant

also you wrote that: Old cars without a pressurized cooling system could indeed use plain water as coolant with no ill effects, as long as you kept putting more in.
Are you quite sure about that statement? No ill effects? no future problems? you sure?

I know heat removal....I'm a HVAC Tech

don't boil over....your simply wrong
 

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Old Twistie Sticks Rider
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One of the things antifreeze does that was not mentioned is to reduce corrosion. Aluminum does not "rust" per say, but can corrode.

If you live where it's hot, a mix of 40% antifreeze to 60% distilled water is the way to go. Although I've had to add water to a few cars in
my life.... I never had to do this on any water cooled bike... So the idea of doing a "strong mix" in case I have to add water sounds silly... As far as motorcycles are concerned.

When it gets cold... I add antifreeze.... As I do ride in winter.
How much does it take in a bike to make a strong mix...??? Would a 1/2 teacup do it, we're not talkin about breakin the bank are we...??? I just stated what I do, and you should have seen that in my post ...
So, that said, what's silly to you may not be to me... That's exactly why they make chocolate and that other stuff (can't spell vanilla)...
I have no intent to argue...ok...:beerchug:...:beerchug:...
Have a good one...Old Dog...
 

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/\ Darn, Prestone is still lying to me, in big letters on the front of the gallon jug it is written---ANTI FREEZE/COOLANT, and yes as you state 70% is the top of the litter and protects down to-84*F and increases the boil point to 276*F...
BTW-I have no link, I'm quoting streight off Prestone's Jug...
...e...Old Dog...
No, Prestone is not lying when they label their product as Antifreeze/Coolant. What they are referencing to is the product’s ability to lower the freezing point, that’s the Antifreeze portion, and extend the boiling point, that’s the Coolant portion. Coolant just happens to be a better marketing term than Antiboil. However, the product itself is not as efficient as water when it comes to transferring heat from the engine block to the radiator. That is why some engines might run hotter in the summer with a 70/30 (antifreeze/water) mixture.

Also, fact that the 50/50 ratio strikes the best balance between protection (the antifreeze/coolant component) and heat transfer (the water component) for most areas of the country was developed intentionally. Manufacturer’s felt that it was easy enough for consumer to follow (and not screw up). Hence, it is pretty much the standard across most (if not all) antifreeze/coolant manufacturers. Even the premixed stuff is marketed as "50/50".
 

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If only it had 6th gear..
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OD I'm sure you're not doin' any harm by going a lil' more than the recommended 50/50. Looking at your posts I'd guess you keep watch on your gauges and you'd notice if something seemed wrong. We all have things that we do that have worked for us over the years that may seem not quite right to others. As long as what your doing gives you peace of mind and isn't damaging your ride. ( like putting in antifreeze not made for aluminum systems :doh: ), I say no worries. I'd rather buy a bike from someone who ran a strong mix instead of not giving a flyin .... if it even had any antifreeze in it while barrelassing around till the needle kissed the right side stop of the gauge, lol.
Peace.
 

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It is true that a mixture of water and ethylene glycol does not transfer heat as well as water, UP TO THE POINT WHERE THE WATER STARTS TO BOIL. At that point, boiling water transfers virtually no heat at all, and you have air pockets, or "voids" in the cooling system, causing "hot spots" and engine damage. A proper mix of water and ethylene glycol has a much higher boiling point than water, and will continue to function as a coolant until it reaches it's boiling point, again which is MUCH HIGHER THAN WATER.


Over the years, from the early '60s to the present, the operating temperature of car engines has increased substantially, by design, in an attempt to make them more fuel efficient and make less emissions. The thermostats have gone up in temperature. Newer cars MUST operate at the designed temperature, in order for their computer controlled engine management systems to work properly.


And HVAC has nothing to do with car and motorcycle cooling systems. I know perfectly well how an A/C system works, I am ASE certified in auto A/C systems. The basic principal is the same, the transfer of heat from a place where it is not wanted (the engine) to a place where it is unobjectionable (the air surrounding the radiator) That came straight out of the book. However, R-12, R-22, and R-134a have COMPLETELY different temperature/pressure characteristics than engine coolant. An engine cooling system does not have a compressor and a metering device, nor does it have a high side and low side. The pressure remains constant throughout the system. Also there is no change of state. The coolant MUST remain liquid at all times to do it's job.


The simple fact is that a proper coolant mix has a much higher boiling point than water alone, and neither water nor proper coolant will function as a coolant once they reach their boiling point. So, anti boil, is just as good a description of ethylene glycol as anti freeze. It has both a higher boiling point and a lower freezing point. Water freezes an only 32 degreesF. A proper coolant will continue to protect your engine at much higher (and lower) temperatures than plain water.

And KM is right about the antirust/anti corrosion properties of ethylene glycol as well. I have seen many car radiators completely destroyed by "tap" water, it also eats up the core plugs, and rusts the coolant passages.
 

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You guys make my head hurt.
 
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