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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
OK...so today I wanted to experiment with some inexpensive LED replacement bulbs I found. I got the Electronic flasher that everyone mentioned is necessary for LED's due to the low current draw that is insufficient to make the thermal flasher work properly....CHECK!

Removed the tail/brake light bulbs with LED bulbs...removed the front driving/signal bulbs and replaced with same type of LED bulb (dual element).

Removed the rear signal (single filament) bulb and replaced with appropriate LED bulb.

All hazard and blinkers work fine :smiley_th
Tail light and brake light work fine :smiley_th

front driving lights in the blinkers do NOT light even after swapping those bulbs with the ones from the tail light. :doh: This means in this circuit there must be other bulbs that are causing an imbalance in the loads.

I have gone through every LED thread I could find and found nothing mentioning this scenario other than people use load balancers. I refuse to go that route since it defeats the purpose of using the LED's in the first place.

OK...so I know it is probably the blinker indicator bulb and maybe some of the warning or back lighting bulbs in the instrument cluster that need to also be upgraded to LED's in order to keep the loads balanced on that circuit. Here is what I am trying to find out without having to take the instrument clusters apart first:

What bulbs are used in the back lighting of the instrument cluster and how many?

What bulbs are used for idiot lights (neutral, Signal indicator. headlight..etch) and how many?

also going to change out the license plate bulb so if anyone knows which bulb that is...you will save me the time of pulling that one ahead of ordering replacements. (EDIT: found this to be a 97mini bulb .69A 13.5V G-6 single contact bayonet base)

All I have is the Kawi service manual, and I don't see bulb part numbers listed. For now I left the original bulbs in the front and everything seems to work just fine....but it is still just a half a$$ job in my book. I want to order up all the bulbs and change them all out at one time.

Hopefully someone else has a list of bullbs needed to accomplish a full LED conversion. Thanks ahead of time for the input!
 

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I replaced my license plate bulb with a car dome light LED that I found on ebay for $1.64 including shipping and the thing came from Hong Kong. Came wired with a bulb socket so I plugged it in and it works fine. For that much money who needs to experiment. I was going to convert the directionals to LED as well but as a former member here told me that they don't stay on for a long time so it wasn't worth the effort and I agreed with him so I left them alone. I did the brake light from Lighting Alternatives (I think that was the name) but they're no longer in business.
 

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The front driving lights circuit is completely separate from the blinkers. What they have in common is that the filaments of the front blinkers and the driving lights are in the same bulb - but still separate. Are you sure that your led bulbs have actually two leds in them? They must be different from the rear bulbs.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The front driving lights circuit is completely separate from the blinkers. What they have in common is that the filaments of the front blinkers and the driving lights are in the same bulb - but still separate. Are you sure that your led bulbs have actually two leds in them? They must be different from the rear bulbs.
Yes...the front bulbs are dual fiament...and so are the tail light bulbs, I swapped them out so I know the bulbs are good. The front friving lights are on the same circuit as the speedometer lights, meter light, and tachometer light according to the wiring diagram. those bulbs are only identified as 12V 3W. The other bulbs in the cluster are identified as 12V 3.4W.

I just need to know which type of bulbs and how many.
 

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Discussion Starter #6

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Discussion Starter #7
found this thread:
http://www.vn750.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11618

Can anyone verify the bulbs?


Qty | Kaw part # | draw @12V | LED replacement | LED draw @12V
6 | 92069-1007 | 0.20 amps | WLED-W4 | 0.02 amps


The above are used for the instrument cluster--turn signals, high beam, neutral indicator, oil pressure, and headlamp failure.



Qty | Kaw part # | draw @12V | LED replacement | LED draw @12V
5 | 92069-1020 | 0.18 amps | 74-WHP | 0.01 amps


Those listed just above are used for the illumination of speedometer, tachometer, engine temperature, and the fuel gauge.
 

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I am going to go out on a limb here and say that using led lighting to "lighten the load" on a bike charging system is counterproductive,All the wattage you take out of the lighting system has to be dissipated by the R/R, in the form of heat, as all extra power is shunted to ground that the electrical system doesn't use.In theory it sounds like a good idea and it is if you are wanting to add more accessories to burn up the extra power you have freed up.

The stator /regulator charging system on motorcycles is constantly on ,unlike automotive system which excite the magnetic fields in the alternator and inducing voltage when it is needed and is controlled either by a voltage regulator or in the case of later model vehicles(some motorcylces too) the ECM.

Now led lighting to be seen and to be more durable is not a bad idea,but the thought that you are some how going to lengthen the life of your charging system is a bad assumption,As many on here can attest those with LED lighting have to replace stators too,If you want a more efficient and cooler running system the Mosfet R/R is much more efficient at regulating voltage and is probably one of the best investments for the charging system.

When adding extra lighting ,led's are a good choice because they don't over load an already weak system.

so adding resistors back onto the lights to make them work properly will not hurt the system,The charging systems on these machines is just under engineered for what is asked of them,the stator is too weakly built and not cooled very well is why it is so prone to failure.people who change oil regularly and keep it at the proper levels seem to have less problems than others since it is the only thing that cools the stator.I have often wondered if an external oil cooler would help these bike's charging system last longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I am going to go out on a limb here and say that using led lighting to "lighten the load" on a bike charging system is counterproductive,All the wattage you take out of the lighting system has to be dissipated by the R/R, in the form of heat, as all extra power is shunted to ground that the electrical system doesn't use.In theory it sounds like a good idea and it is if you are wanting to add more accessories to burn up the extra power you have freed up.

The stator /regulator charging system on motorcycles is constantly on ,unlike automotive system which excite the magnetic fields in the alternator and inducing voltage when it is needed and is controlled either by a voltage regulator or in the case of later model vehicles(some motorcylces too) the ECM.

Now led lighting to be seen and to be more durable is not a bad idea,but the thought that you are some how going to lengthen the life of your charging system is a bad assumption,As many on here can attest those with LED lighting have to replace stators too,If you want a more efficient and cooler running system the Mosfet R/R is much more efficient at regulating voltage and is probably one of the best investments for the charging system.

When adding extra lighting ,led's are a good choice because they don't over load an already weak system.

so adding resistors back onto the lights to make them work properly will not hurt the system,The charging systems on these machines is just under engineered for what is asked of them,the stator is too weakly built and not cooled very well is why it is so prone to failure.people who change oil regularly and keep it at the proper levels seem to have less problems than others since it is the only thing that cools the stator.I have often wondered if an external oil cooler would help these bike's charging system last longer.
I plan on adding a third brake light, rear running lights, and a light bar with driving lights. I also have accessories that I plan on running as well. Lightening the load is the plan...so I can add new stuff :smiley_th
 

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front driving lights in the blinkers do NOT light even after swapping those bulbs with the ones from the tail light. This means in this circuit there must be other bulbs that are causing an imbalance in the loads.
I don't know what you mean by load imbalance here, but only the blinkers are sensitive to load when a load sensitive blinker relay is used. And you obviously have replaced that with a load insensitive electronic relay. So, you can use any combination of bulbs and they should all just work.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
you can use any combination of bulbs and they should all just work.
unfortunately this is not true. If you have an incandescent bulb in the same circuit as an LED bulb, the incandescent will illuminate and the LED's won't. The current will take the path of least resistance and the LED's need an initial break over voltage to start conducting current through them.

If you were to replace only one bulb in the tali light to LED, the LED will not come on until you pull the incandescent bulb next to it. The same concept applies to the front running light circuit that is on the same circuit of the instrument cluster.


Just to clarify an earlier statement by denny6006, I don't know how the R/R is designed internally but the R/R should not heat up if you are using a smaller load. If a regulator can provide 60 amps and you only are utilizing 20 amps on the output, The regulator does not "shunt" the unused 40 amps to ground and heat up. A regulator is designed to provide the correct voltage and regulate that voltage throughout the range of current it is rated for. As the load increases, the voltage on the regulator output will want to drop. The regulator will compensate by regulating the voltage up to the correct voltage. The more load it sees, the harder it works to regulate the voltage...this is what makes it run hotter.
A well designed regulator can run all day with no load and not get hot. It will only get hotter when more load is being used (more load =more current draw)

Switching over to LED's should not hurt your R/R....it will only help it last longer.
 

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Just to clarify an earlier statement by denny6006, I don't know how the R/R is designed internally but the R/R should not heat up if you are using a smaller load. If a regulator can provide 60 amps and you only are utilizing 20 amps on the output, The regulator does not "shunt" the unused 40 amps to ground and heat up. A regulator is designed to provide the correct voltage and regulate that voltage throughout the range of current it is rated for. As the load increases, the voltage on the regulator output will want to drop. The regulator will compensate by regulating the voltage up to the correct voltage. The more load it sees, the harder it works to regulate the voltage...this is what makes it run hotter.
A well designed regulator can run all day with no load and not get hot. It will only get hotter when more load is being used (more load =more current draw)

Switching over to LED's should not hurt your R/R....it will only help it last longer.
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You don't understand this charging system, the R/R does send ALL excess current to Ground and it is not the regulator that is the culprit,It is just working as designed,

The problem is The stator output is directly proportional to RPM and it is excited by the permanent magnet in the rotor turning around the outside of it.as rpm increases so does AC voltage and I did say AC ,it is also three phase which is why you should see from 40 to 70 VAC whenever testing stator voltage.

Now if you Know stator output is tied to RPM when it goes to the R/R it has two Jobs one is rectifier that converts AC voltage to DC voltage,the second is to regulate power output to the battery and whatever it is powering at the time..if you are loping along at low rpm the stator output is lower and the load remains constant. The whole system may at certain RPM and load, come into balance and the R/R doesn't have to shunt much of the potential from the stator.

Now here is the problem. As engine rpm increases voltage from the stator to the R/R increases on the input ,there is no way around this,just designed that way,while internally the R/R see's an increase in input and there is only the increased power the coils are using (because they are firing and recharging more times per minute also)all other loads remain the same.

There is no getting around OHM's Law, higher voltage requires more resistance to keep the DC output to acceptable levels,the excess is applied to a shunt that goes to guess where ?GROUND and we all now resistance creates heat(touch a burning incandescent light bulb if you don't know that) or as applies here is touch your R/R after riding about twenty minutes on a warm day.No don't do that really,but my point is it will be hot!!! Why do you think it is the excess power that was not used by charging ,ignition and other electrical components IS all sent through the shunt that is internal to the R/R and dissipated in the form of heat.

Your assesment is close to correct for anything that has an automotive style charging system and some late model bikes,the Gold wing comes to mind, do have an automotive style system, ours don't.Most late model bikes have switched to a more efficient style of R/R that runs a lot cooler and easier than the shunt style R/R, on stators.

There is the story and as they say on TV, Believe it,Or Not?:)
 
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I couldn't have said that better myself Denny...
Thanks Slim, I remember your quest to upgrade the stock system and I am sure people on here were watching your progress as you worked on adapting a a mosfet operated R/R that would work on these bikes ,have a wonderful Christmas this year,Are you back stateside or still in the" big suck " as my cousin calls it when he is over there?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
You don't understand this charging system, the R?R does send ALL excess current to Ground and it is not the regulator that is the culprit,It is just working as designed,

The problem is The stator output is directly proportional to RPM and it is excited by the permanent magnet in the rotor turning around the outside of it.as rpm increases so does AC voltage and I did say AC ,it is also three phase which is why you should see from 40 to 70 VAC whenever testing stator voltage.

Now if you Know stator output is tied to RPM when it goes to the R/R it has two Jobs one is rectifier that converts AC voltage to DC voltage,the second is to regulate power output to the battery and whatever it is powering at the time..if you are loping along at low rpm the stator output is lower and the load remains constant the whole system may at one time come into balance and the R?R doesn't have to shunt much of the potential from the stator.

Now here is the problem as engine rpm increases voltage from the stator to the R/R increases on the input ,there is no way around this,just designed that way,while internally the R/R see's an increase in input and there is only the increased power the coils are using (because they are firing and recharging more times per minute also)all other loads remain the same.

There is no getting around OHM's Law, higher voltage requires more resistance to keep the DC output to acceptable levels,the excess is applied to a shunt that goes to guess where ?GROUND and we all now resistance creates heat(touch a burning incandescent light bulb if you don't know that) or as applies here is touch your R/R after riding about twenty minutes on a warm day.No don't do that really,but my point is it will be hot!!! Why do you think it is the excess power that was not used by charging ,ignition and other electrical components IS all sent through the shunt that is internal to the R/R and dissipated in the form of heat.

Your assesment is close to correct for anything that has an automotive style charging system and some late model bikes,the Gold wing comes to mind, do have an automotive style system, ours don't.Most late model bikes have switched to a more efficient style of R/R that runs a lot cooler and easier than the shunt style R/R, on stators.

There is the story and as they say on TV, Believe it,Or Not?:)
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Thanks for explaining that....point taken and noted! I suppose that installing a MOSFET R/R would alleviate the inherent problem with our stock R/R? I guess I will have to take a closer look at how the whole system is designed and see if switching over to LED's really is a good option or not for our bikes.
I guess need to get my hands on actual schematics for the Stator and R/R systems and see exactly how it is designed. Time for more research!

And thanks for explaining how this system is different than conventional systems...and keeping it respectful and informative. I enjoy these forums because there is a wealth of knowledge here in the members. I do not intend to challenge anyone or get into a pissing match....simply learn and share what I learn about our bikes. Thanks again denny!
 

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If you have an incandescent bulb in the same circuit as an LED bulb, the incandescent will illuminate and the LED's won't.
If they are in parallel, both will illuminate. If they are in series, the LED bulb will limit the current and probably only the LED will illuminate, unless the incandescent bulb is of a very low wattage, in which case they both will glow.

Of course you need to have the LED bulb polarity correct for it to illuminate at all. It is possible to build it so that it works both ways, but I don't know if such bulbs exist.

In VN750 all bulbs are in parallel and directly get the battery voltage (except the headlight fault indicator). If your running lights work with incandescent bulbs but not with LED bulbs, then there is a contact problem with the LED bulbs.
 

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Denny your explanation of how our charging system, especially the R&R works was spot on. Switching to LEDs for the sole purpose of reducing the load on the charging system actually makes the R&R work harder and hotter. However the switch to LEDs might be worth it if you're looking for a brighter and longer lasting light source. In particular, the front running/turn signals can be switched to LEDs that eclipse the normal brightness so that the running lights are at high intensity and the signal lights are blinking off, which is opposite of normal where the blinkers blink at high intensity and the running lights are at a lower intensity. High intensity running lights make you more visible to oncoming traffic, which is always a good idea. If your worried about the extra heat on the R&R, you can always relocate it to an area where it will get more airflow to cool it off. Problem solved!
 

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Denny your explanation of how our charging system, especially the R&R works was spot on. Switching to LEDs for the sole purpose of reducing the load on the charging system actually makes the R&R work harder and hotter. However the switch to LEDs might be worth it if you're looking for a brighter and longer lasting light source. In particular, the front running/turn signals can be switched to LEDs that eclipse the normal brightness so that the running lights are at high intensity and the signal lights are blinking off, which is opposite of normal where the blinkers blink at high intensity and the running lights are at a lower intensity. High intensity running lights make you more visible to oncoming traffic, which is always a good idea. If your worried about the extra heat on the R&R, you can always relocate it to an area where it will get more airflow to cool it off. Problem solved!
Thanks ,I totally agree with you on the use of led's and brighter light for sewing and being seen,and their longer service life ,plus the fact they generally have a longer service life than incandescent lights,I think I pointed this out in an earlier post in this thread although I may have not made it clear enough,(no pun intended) ,I think with the addition of an HId headlight which is much brighter with a lower current draw,one may be able to run other accessories and not worry about overloading the system,tunes,amps or heated gear come to mind especially this time of year:)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If they are in parallel, both will illuminate. If they are in series, the LED bulb will limit the current and probably only the LED will illuminate, unless the incandescent bulb is of a very low wattage, in which case they both will glow.

Of course you need to have the LED bulb polarity correct for it to illuminate at all. It is possible to build it so that it works both ways, but I don't know if such bulbs exist.

In VN750 all bulbs are in parallel and directly get the battery voltage (except the headlight fault indicator). If your running lights work with incandescent bulbs but not with LED bulbs, then there is a contact problem with the LED bulbs.
I looked a little closer at this and realized that I was missing something. I took a good look at the relocation of the rears and found that the extension wires installed by the dealer were actually swapping polarity on the rear light stalks. :doh:
And as far as the LEd bulbs go...The ones I purchased do work even if polarity is reversed.

I still can't figure out why the front running lights won't turn on with LED bulbs in place. I will investigate more after I get the wiring squared away and modify the rear lights to run as driving lights and blinkers (with red lenses).
 

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Denny, I am still in the suck... and my quest for more power was just as you said, so i could run heated gear,tunes, gps, and Bike 2 Bike intercoms.
 
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