Murican MCCT mod - Kawasaki Vulcan 750 Forum : Kawasaki VN750 Forums
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-11-2016, 10:52 PM Thread Starter
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Red face Murican MCCT mod

Built around a 5/16th - 18, 3 inch central axle, the housing is tapped in the cap of the neck-end to 5/16" and a nut is compress fit into the housing. Only stock parts of the ACCT that remain are the housing, the plunger and its retaining ring and the two rubber o-rings.

Parts:

Nuts and bolts all SAE zinc covered steel.

5/16" - 18 NC x 3 inch full thread bolt with half inch hex head
qty 2, 5/16" standard nuts
5/16" Nylon sleeved stop nut
3/8" x 7/8" rubber washer
3/8" x 7/8" steel washer

Compress fit nut is intended to handle most of the pressure outward coming from the cam guide and distribute it into the housing rather than the cap of the housing neck. The cap of the housing neck will also share this pressure in its threads. This is mod of Wolfie's old mod which used a 6mm nut up against the the neck cap. The compress fit nut also firms up the central axle keeping it from any side to side wobble.

The cap of the housing neck has its normal small o-ring which acts more like a spacer for the rubber washer that sits on top. The nut behind the rubber washer and its steel mate acts to compress the axle keeping the compress fit nut from moving forward. The stop/lock nut is used to lock the outside nut after adjusting.

To adjust, put a 1/2" crescent wrench on the stop nut then the outside nut, loosening them an 1/8th of a turn at most, just enough to relieve the compression of the threads. Secure the nuts using 1/2" wrench on the stop nut to keep it "in place" relative to the axle. Using a 1/2" socket or crescent on the axle bolt clockwise will turn the bolt independent of the nuts then and extend the plunger. After the adjustment is made, turn the outside nut and its stop nut partner clockwise to compress the threads again.

Photos show parts and assembly.

1) shows nut in the throat of the housing ( compress fit nut ).
2) shows the cap of the neck end tapped out to 5/16" with its rubber o-ring installed.
3) shows rubber and steel washers resting on top of the neck end.
4) shows bolt ordering on the 3" axle, stop nut first, then common nut.
5) finger screwing the axle into the cap at the neck end
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-11-2016, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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.. contd part two photos

1) after finger tigtening, the axle eventually reaches the compress fit nut. Continue to turn until the end of the axle is flush with the opposite side of the nut.

2) While holding the AXLE in place with a socket wrench, turn the outside compression nut until it is snug against the washers.

3) Insert the plunger paying attention to its keyed ring.

4) Snap the retaining ring in place. This is the full in position. It extends a bit out. An alternative mod if this is "too far" for minimum extension would be to use a jam nut ( half height ) but this would also reduce the number of threads supporting the force of the cam-guides spread into the housing.

5) Final assembly held upside-down



This mod is still in "proof of concept" stage. Any/all comments welcome. Already thinking about the JB weld for the compression fit nut, but after working with it on the desk, it's acting fine without it. Since it cannot rotate, it cannot advance its position along the axle. Since there is no rotation of the axle except while adjusting, and because the outside nut when tightened compresses its threads, it's pretty stable where it is in all directions.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-14-2016, 02:18 AM Thread Starter
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Revision 2

Concerns...
  1. Two parts instead of a single bolt going through the hole.
  2. Entire assembly is longer than necessary
  3. The original plunger is rather loose flopping around when freestanding.
  4. Counting threads is the only means of gauging at installation
  5. Lock nut is a pain in the rump

If a single bolt is used like in the TOC design, items 1,3 and 4 above can be eliminated. Item 4 only possibly eliminated pending further information about cam chains and guides.

Item 2 is only a guess pending information as well:

How far from the crankcase wall on the ID side is the minimum distance to the OD side of a brand new tight chain?

How far is the maximum for an old worn out chain?

And... would the angle of the old worn out chain going down from the guides have a point where it should NOT be helped? Could maintaining its tension at a certain angle affect other parts?

The original ACCT only has about 1.5 inches of play and its mushroom end on the plunger is only about a 1/4" ( to be subtracted from the above questions ).

I am "planning" now on a rebuild of the engine as soon as reasonably possible. Those distances can be measured more accurately with the hood popped off. A single bolt design has the bonus attraction of using torque to gauge the installation rather than counting threads. The question then becomes: Is there a specific sideways torque that the guides must provide for the chain when it's all in spec?

When taking the ACCT apart in the first place, i was considering measuring its torque coming out the end, but that makes very little sense since the springs wear out and it is already known to fail.

When considering the advice of the various people that have commented here on the forums about installation, though, ... for right now, at least, the answer might be "no torque", but "no slop" in the chain. That would make the most sense. The current means of installing advises to "finger tight", hear the noise, then tighten until it goes away. That installation technique appears to agree with "no torque", and "no slop". Chain should flow as fast and free as possible without and slapping on its guides to be tight against the teeth of the various gears/sprockets.

Regarding the bolt itself, its final required length yet to be determined, i was initially thinking about putting a cap nut/acorn nut on its internal end, then realized i had that backwards. If the bolts head is on the internal side of the engine, then it will avoid needing any lock-tite or JB-weld on the cap to make it permanent and there is one less part for the bike to eat on failure. The cap nut could be on the installation side of the bolt instead, and then also used to actually turn the bolt into the assembly.

To reduce the length of the assembly, i have decided to cut the housing of the original ACCT in approximately half. The cut would be approximately at the point where the MCCT.v.1 internal bolt meets the housing. That internal bolt provides more threads to make sure the cam-guide torque cannot push the bolt out, but as some have noted here on the forums, that is probably overkill in design. When considering the original ACCT. The threads on the acorn nuts that house the entire unit become the weakest point in any overkill design. Those are simply two 6mm threaded studs coming out of the crankcase. If the chain guide has enough force to defeat the threads on those studs, then an overkill design simply transfers the risk of thread slipping to those.

Another reason to cut the original OEM housing is because the internal bolt does not thread synch with the bored out threads of the version 1 housing. This makes it impossible to really feel the "delicacy" of finger tight. So if a torque wrench is used to eventually gauge the action later down the road, that lack of synch will toss any measurements out the window.

Without OVER-engineering this MCCT, and yet taking all of these matters into consideration, it makes sense that the MCCTv.2 design only needs to have two nuts, rather than three. The question then boils down to:

Is one common zinc plated SAE 5/16ths nut stronger in threading than two 6mm metric aluminum threaded studs?

i THINK so... but... that question needs to have its math done as well. And if the answer is "yes", then a simple two bolt with an acorn end design is sufficient. One bolt to support torque and the other to lock the threads. Otherwise, a third internal bolt will need to be deployed to provide more support against the internal housing. On the other and, taking concern number 3 above into consideration... with only 1 bolt at the base, and one to lock it down, with an open ended cut design would mean the bolt would be floppy until the 2nd locking bolt was screwed down on the neck's end. So, overkill or not... overkill is quicker with 3 bolts, one internal and can we safely skip the math then? I would hope that two 5/16" SAE are stronger than two 6mm acorn nuts, but the angle of the thread *does* come into that equation so i'll probably end up doing that math anyways before calling this design a done deal.

Please feel free to chime in on anything i might be thinking incorrectly regarding structure, torque, or anything else, or... hey, just send me a pair of TOC MCCTs... I am going the cheap route for a reason, but avoiding the pitfalls of cheap is important too.

The Murican MCCT.v2 draft spec drawing looks like this now:
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 04:49 AM Thread Starter
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Revision 2.1

Spent practically all day filing the key in the flange washer. That's the critter in the first photo. The only flange washers around are evidently 8mm x 1.25 so it must be very popular. Everything else had too large a flange and would hang over tolerance of the hole. And so, 8mm it would be, but what's this? No 8mm bolts ~3" long? The threads only go about 2" up the stem so i got 1 8mm x 1.25 bolt about 3" long... pretty sure it was a 75 mm. The rest of the threads were cut using die, and this is important, they need to go all the way up the stem because the flange nut sits on the inside of the engine snug flush with the wall, and since the design is using the turning hex head of the bolt from the inside out the threads need to meet as close as possible to reach minimum extension into the engine.

After the flange nut was finally keyed such that it would fit snug and flat, i attached the ring to hold it in. The ring, however, will not hold an 8mm lip ( part unkeyed ). Evidently 8mm flange nuts do not extend far enough out. I took the key out and off of the OEM ACCT plunger and set it on top to retain the flange nut. No dice... the gap beneath the ring is insufficient to hold both the flange nut and the OEM key. So the both the OEM ring and the OEM key were set aside and a new ring was made out of some steel wire to harness the flange bolt down. That's photo number 2.

Now to install the bolt, it was time to cut the ACCT housing... and... i chickened out at that step for now. The bolt would still need some sort of centering though and the only taps i have are SAE... So i bored out the old 5/16" hole in the housing neck cap and brought it up to 3/8". This was just enough to keep from threading and the new bore acts like a simple friction bearing. The bolt in place and the OEM grommet on the end, it rolled easy between the fingers. Photo number 4 shows the bolt installed, the OEM O-ring and a better fitting washer. ( sorry there is no way to delete or change the order of photos after they are uploaded, so... )

Photo number 3 shows the finished assembly with a lock washer, and an 8mm nut to hold the position and act as a lock. Lowe's also didn't have any acorn nuts at 8mm. So i decided to use a 5/16 nut from the earlier design, screw it down until it wanted to cross thread, finger tight and that will be the adjustment knob. To install will use a 1/2" SAE open-end wrench.

The photo also shows how the retainer wire is tucked into the hole of the deep key slot. Time to mount it on Lydia. . .
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 05:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoadHopper View Post
Spent practically all day filing the key in the flange washer. That's the critter in the first photo. The only flange washers around are evidently 8mm x 1.25 so it must be very popular. Everything else had too large a flange and would hang over tolerance of the hole. And so, 8mm it would be, but what's this? No 8mm bolts ~3" long? The threads only go about 2" up the stem so i got 1 8mm x 1.25 bolt about 3" long... pretty sure it was a 75 mm. The rest of the threads were cut using die, and this is important, they need to go all the way up the stem because the flange nut sits on the inside of the engine snug flush with the wall, and since the design is using the turning hex head of the bolt from the inside out the threads need to meet as close as possible to reach minimum extension into the engine.

After the flange nut was finally keyed such that it would fit snug and flat, i attached the ring to hold it in. The ring, however, will not hold an 8mm lip ( part unkeyed ). Evidently 8mm flange nuts do not extend far enough out. I took the key out and off of the OEM ACCT plunger and set it on top to retain the flange nut. No dice... the gap beneath the ring is insufficient to hold both the flange nut and the OEM key. So the both the OEM ring and the OEM key were set aside and a new ring was made out of some steel wire to harness the flange bolt down. That's photo number 2.

Now to install the bolt, it was time to cut the ACCT housing... and... i chickened out at that step for now. The bolt would still need some sort of centering though and the only taps i have are SAE... So i bored out the old 5/16" hole in the housing neck cap and brought it up to 3/8". This was just enough to keep from threading and the new bore acts like a simple friction bearing. The bolt in place and the OEM grommet on the end, it rolled easy between the fingers. Photo number 4 shows the bolt installed, the OEM O-ring and a better fitting washer. ( sorry there is no way to delete or change the order of photos after they are uploaded, so... )

Photo number 3 shows the finished assembly with a lock washer, and an 8mm nut to hold the position and act as a lock. Lowe's also didn't have any acorn nuts at 8mm. So i decided to use a 5/16 nut from the earlier design, screw it down until it wanted to cross thread, finger tight and that will be the adjustment knob. To install will use a 1/2" SAE open-end wrench.

The photo also shows how the retainer wire is tucked into the hole of the deep key slot. Time to mount it on Lydia. . .
https://www.vn750.com/forum/31-engine...ghlight=Wib714

Should have read this thread , would have saved you a lot of time. I know it worked well. Wib's bike still has them this many years later and mine had them til it was sold and did as long as it lived ( some kid got it and let it run duty of oil from a leak it developed on the side cover.)

Unless you just wanted to reinvent the wheel




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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by denny6006 View Post
https://www.vn750.com/forum/31-engine...ghlight=Wib714

Should have read this thread , would have saved you a lot of time. I know it worked well. Wib's bike still has them this many years later and mine had them til it was sold and did as long as it lived ( some kid got it and let it run duty of oil from a leak it developed on the side cover.)

Unless you just wanted to reinvent the wheel
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he wanted.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by calebj View Post
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he wanted.
Yes you are correct, but wanting it in the first place would be incorrect.

I read that whole thread from start to finish and the problem that occurred was that it "started out" as a quick and easy thing to do, but... that no longer works due to time, resources, etc... so Wib did a great job, but i am in a situation that requires having the bike RUNNING before i begin so i can get parts, then tear down, then test.

In that thread we have the eventual JB Weld kludge from Wolfy. I want a design that does not rely on anything ever busting due to whatever chemical reaction. Also that design had worries about the thread strength later ( see Thtanners remarks near the middle of the thread ).

And so there are quite a few factors at play here in the "design department". In any case, though, last night after double checking everything before putting the MCCT back on Lydia, my own design caught me as a culprit. By ignoring my cut and chickening out, i would be out of enough extension of the plunger by as much as 3/4".

So guess who cut the housing last night. . . .

Pictures and Revision 2.2 will be posted later today. It was too dark to install or test last night.

Sneak preview:
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 02:45 PM
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I have the 'original' style modification on mine, with wolfies extra nut jb welded in on mine for about 3 yrs now.. no issues, no leaks, and have not had to adjust them either.

like the initiative tho, keep going!
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 03:04 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by michiganteddybear View Post
I have the 'original' style modification on mine, with wolfies extra nut jb welded in on mine for about 3 yrs now.. no issues, no leaks, and have not had to adjust them either.

like the initiative tho, keep going!
ehem . . . erm . . . uhm. . . the reason i don't like the chemicals is a social ego cover and another way of saying i can't afford to buy them. 6 bucks is a day's food.



I appreciate that you're reading the thread. It makes it worthwhile documenting it all.

video of the installation this morning is "uploading" and will take some time. Haven't seen it myself yet. I wanted to try and take a few video-production tips from Caleb to see if they resolved the issues with my camera-man. erm... see above about social ego covers.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 04-15-2016, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganteddybear View Post
I have the 'original' style modification on mine, with wolfies extra nut jb welded in on mine for about 3 yrs now.. no issues, no leaks, and have not had to adjust them either.

like the initiative tho, keep going!
Hehe he said Wolfie's extra nut.hehe
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