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Click-clack

5K views 47 replies 8 participants last post by  One1 
#1 ·
So I’ve read quite a lot on here about the ACCTs and MCCTs for this bike. Since it’s winter (well almost, it hasn’t been real cold) here in philly I get this sound when the engine has been sitting and is completely cold. It doesn’t last for longer than a few minutes so I’m assuming as the engine warms up things are expanding into place. But I don’t have enough experience to know the difference between a valve tapping or a cam chain clanking. So far I’ve tried the grambo trick, but it didn’t make a difference so Before I try that again or go even further and get new tensioners, I wanted to see if someone could give me a positive ID from the video.

https://youtu.be/Pa37CE-DaJM
 
#5 ·
Good deal. Thanks for the tip. I’ll give that a try on next start. I guess my natural reaction was to not touch the engine once it’s running.
That’s the first part of the question. If I do find it to be the tensioner, is it failing? Or is it just a product of expanding and contracting because of the weather. Because it stops and I don’t hear it until the next day when it’s good and cold. I put the bike in storage last winter and didn’t hear it during the warmer months last year so this is my first run with the bike in the cold.
 
#6 ·
It's a lot louder than mine has ever been, so I lean toward failure. If it quiets down completely after warmup, it's probably just getting really weak, and will fail soon.

That's a lot of clacking to have on each warmup, so it's putting extra wear on the guides, etc. each time. Best plan is to do an MCCT, or replace the ACCT. Spring replacement on the ACCT is a temporary fix according to those that have gone that route.

The TOC brand MCCTs are really nice, but also pricey compared to the $8 to build your own.

TOCs were about $50 each. Others on ebay were around $25 each, but they come with a bolt that's kinda too long and interferes with the coolant tank. If I did those I would just replace with a shorter bolt.
 
#7 ·
Ok good deal, thanks for the info. I’ll try to pinpoint it for sanity on next start up and go from there. It would be nice if this bike would stop requiring me to part with chunks of cash for a few months. I got it for a good price but think I’ve probably bought it twice by now with all the repairs an tweaks lol.
 
#13 ·
But would that simply go away when it warmed up?
I’m all for being thorough so I’ll go ahead and check as much as I can.

I searched more info and judging by what I read and my current odometer reading (22K) it seams like I’m prime time for the tensioners to be replaced. OEM are freakin $97 each with shipping! No thanks, I ordered the TOC’s. I don’t mind paying up a little because it’s the kind of issue that’ll kill the bike if left too long but I wasn’t paying that much for the OEM if they’re known to be problematic.
 
#16 · (Edited)
That sounds like REALLY BAD cam chain noise to me. My 2002 started making a noise similar to that at around 15,000 miles, but nowhere near that bad. I replaced the ACCTs with new ones from Kawasaki. The noise went away for about 10,000 miles, then started to come back. I switched to TOC manual cam chain tensioners. It never made that noise again, but the engine eventually did fail due to a broken cam chain. I suspect that some damage was done early in the engines life, when it was making that noise. I examined the oem ACCts very carefully, and found the internal threads in the aluminum casting were almost completely destroyed. One thing you can do to check that is to take a pocket screwdriver, remove the cap from one of the tensioners, and with the engine running, stick the screwdriver into the end of the tensioner. if the plunger knocks the screwdriver out of your hand, the tensioner is completely shot. The tensioner body has internal female threads cast into it (it's made of soft aluminum) and the plunger that is designed to press against the chain guide and keep the chain tensioned has external male threads on it. It is made of steel. There should be almost no play between the threads in the housing and on the plunger. But as the cam chain turns on it's sprockets, it does so with a whipping motion, constantly banging against the plunger, which quickly wears out the soft aluminum threads in the tensioner housing. The tensioner is now toast, and that is where the problems begin. The plunger binds in the housing and no longer moves in to take up cam chain slack. This could probably have been prevented had Kawasaki used steel for the tensioner body instead of aluminum. But they didn't. Normally I would suggest replacing the stock tensioners with TOC tensioners, but from that sound, I believe the cam chains and guides are probably to far gone to make it worthwhile. It would likely fail after a short time anyway, even if you got rid of the noise.

There is a way to convert the ACCTs to MCCts . I definitely don't recommend it on a good engine, but it costs almost nothing, so it might be worth a try. The instructions are on here somewhere. Just remember that if the engine does fail due to a broken cam chain, it can lock up, and lock up the rear wheel in the process. Mine locked up for maybe a second, then the broken chain shattered the aluminum engine casting, and it started turning again.

This is just how complicated the cam drive system is. https://www.cheapcycleparts.com/oemparts/a/kaw/50a9864bf8700218fcc088a5/camshaft-s-tensioner

It's an absolute nightmare. Part #12048 are the tensioners. $100 apiece for junk.

These defective cam chain tensioners, having to pull the engine to replace the stator, and the fact that the factory never lubed the final drive splines on most Vulcan 750s are probably the reason there are so few of them still around, even though they were made from 1985-2006. These issues causes catastrophic failures, and a lot of the bikes probably got scrapped at fairly low mileage. IMO, Kawasaki really messed up on what was otherwise a wonderful bike, just with a couple of stupid, easily fixed mistakes. And they never fixed these mistakes during the entire 21 year production run.
 
#17 ·
I went ahead and ordered a pair of TOC MCCTs earlier today. I looked at the OEM units on Partzilla and they were about a 100 a piece shipped. So No go on those.
So trust me when I say Ive learned about the love and the pain of owning a VN750. I bought the bike in 2018, I already lived through a stator replacement last summer. I’ve replaced the fork seals, got new front brakes, new tires, two batteries, plus accessories and what not. I don’t have a place to do major work on this bike, so most of it was at a local shop and the stator job was done at a Kaw dealer (ouch)! needless to say I’d love to stop dumping cash into something that’s suppose to bring me joy.
Once it warms up the clack stops and the bike runs like a top. So if fixing this quiets it up I’ll be satisfied. If it buys me time I’ll take it. This is my first bike I hope not my last.
 
#18 ·
I guess it's ok for as long as you want to keep dumping money and work into it. I did a stator replacement on my 2002 at around 80,000 miles. It took several months to get it apart and back together again with a ton of other stuff going on. Then at 118,000 miles the cam chain failed. No possibility of me fixing it. Lots of damage and the engine was full of metal pieces. So I bought a 2006 Sportster 1200, and while I love it, after about 3 1/2 years I found a nice low mileage unbutchered VN750 on Craigslist and just had to have it. I spent over 4 months going over it with a fine tooth comb, replacing everything that needed replacing and probably a lot of things that didn't. I transferred all my genuine Kawasaki accessories (almost $1000 worth in 2002) and TOC cam chain tensioners over to it. But I will not do any major work on it, like replacing a stator. If it goes, the bike goes. The Vulcan 750 is a wonderful bike when everything is right, but there is a lot to go wrong. As good as it is, there are a lot of other bikes out there that are also good, maybe not AS good, but good enough. As much as I love them, I have put all the money and work I'm going to into Vulcan 750s, other than maintenance and minor repairs.
 
#19 ·
I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I DON’T want to keep dumping money into this bike. I want to catch a break and just enjoy the ride. I do love it, but I don’t expect to own this bike when or if it hits 80,000 miles, that would take me another 6-7 yrs with the amount of riding I do. Other than my truck I have now, I don’t think I ever kept any vehicle for 80k miles. I live and work in the city, just don’t need to drive that much.
Interesting enough the only guy I see outside wrenching and fiddling with his bike more than me is my neighbor who owns ....wait for it.... and HD Sportster! Lol But his is a 94 I believe.

Bottom line for it all is I just want to enjoy riding. I’ll repeat myself, I love this bike, but if I knew what I was getting into I’d probably had done a bit more research for a first bike. When I bought it, I only had my class M license for 3 days. Needless to say I was excited to get going. Lesson learned
 
#21 ·
Well I’m with you. Be it a motorcycle or a car, if I find myself having to keep putting money in it, it gets sold ASAP.

I don’t own a motorcycle to learn about fixing one, I buy it to ride. If it becomes unreliable, I get rid of it, and find another one. /forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif
Exactly. I don’t mind tinkering and tweaking things here and there but I have no aspirations of becoming a mechanic. I expected to do more maintenance and less repairs. I always heard Japanese bikes were supposed to be more reliable. I’m one major “WTF” away from a FOR SALE sign.
 
#22 ·
Well as time marches on, your odds of having problems do increase. Not sure what year your bike is, but keep in mind the average Vulcan is about 17 years old. The bike was pretty much unchanged since it release back in 1985 (35 years ago) thus its technology is still dated from then.

More modern Japanese bikes do have a good reputation for reliability. Especially those on the higher price end. The Vulcan was fairly cheap, and given
all the features it came with made it a bargain, so I don’t want to say they didn’t put much R&D into the bike, but it’s possible. There are a few obvious design flaws, like the stator and R/R placement, and the seemingly temperamental and hard to service carburetors.

It’s almost like the bike WAS built to be difficult to work on. Don’t get me wrong I loved the bike....when I owned it. ;)
 
#23 ·
My bike is a 2005, just about as “new” as a 750 can be. I mentioned in the earlier part of the thread that I do like the VN900 custom, preferably 2012 and up. I like the custom more because it has mag wheels, fuel injection doesn’t hurt either, but I believe all the models have that now. I haven’t touched the carbs on my bike and honestly I don’t want to. I put sea foam in this bike like I’m feeding a baby and so far so good.
I’m not sure what you’re considering “higher end” for the price range but what I see those going for is about my highest end. My daughter is still young so dad needs to make sure something is in that college fund as priority 1. I’m not sure I see myself buying a brand new bike ever. Gently used is good enough for me.
 
#24 ·
By “higher end” I mean bikes that they put more $$ into in development and continually upgrade every model year.. Like Goldwings, R-1’s, The larger displacement Ninjas, etc... These tend to be more expensive motorcycles.
My FJR 1300 would be a good example. (MSRP is like $16,000+ now)
They came out in 2003, but there’s been 4 distinct upgrades/generations of changes made to them from then till now.
Compared to the Vulcan that had no major improvements over its lifetime.
 
#25 ·
Oh ok, I see what you mean. The fact that they made 0 changes to this bike over 21yrs flat out surprised me the first time I heard it. I work in the engineering field (Telecommunications) and change is a constant. You’d hope that would be universal to any form of engineering. I can see them keeping the style and looks, but the technology kept moving forward. No way in hell kawasaki never realized the stator plate cluster f-ck! I’m sure keeping “as-is” was better for their bottom line.
 
#26 ·
Sportsters are fun bikes to tinker with, especially carbureted ones. They are one of the most reliable bikes ever made. No internal chains (other than the primary chain which is easily replaced) I love to tinker with both bikes and cars, but am becoming less and less physically able to do so. The Vulcan 750 is a disaster design wise, it has at least twice the parts a motorcycle actually needs. The Vulcan 800 was a major design improvement, but did not come with either tubeless tires or a centerstand, making it worthless to me. It was also not as comfortable. The 900 Custom at least has tubeless tires, but it is an EFI bike. Same as riding a computer on wheels to me. I prefer my computer to stay on my desk. I have two old cars I love to drive and tinker with, both Fords, a 1964 and a 1972. But I find myself having to keep them going, and driving them once a week or so to prevent deterioration. My loss of mobility and serious pain means they will have to go at some point, or I will wind up having to pay someone else to work on them.
 
#27 ·
Haha a “computer on wheels”, as I mentioned I’m in the tech field so it would be hard for me to look at technical evolution as a bad thing. There’s a reason why vehicles aren’t carbureted anymore. I can totally understand the tinkering aspect if it’s a hobby but for me there’s certain things in life that I just want to work. Bike being one of them. My TOCs should arrive Thursday so I just need the weather to cooperate so I can install them.
 
#28 ·
So I got my TOC MCCTs finally (took longer because of a postal error), I installed them yesterday and tweaked them as expected. The clacking noise is gone so needless to say I’m satisfied there. The noise was clearly coming from the left as you can hear in my video in the first post but I went ahead and changed both. I’m curious what others have used to keep the lock nut tight on the right side. Even with the coolant bottle loose it’s a b-tch. I’ve looked up multiple types of stubby 17mm wrenches but mostly everything I see I’m sure won’t fit.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Most Japanese bikes from 1985 were super reliable. The Vulcan 750 is just too complex, and not well thought out. It clearly shows signs that the original design was modified several times before final production due to unknown reasons. My first brand new bike, a 1980 Suzuki GS450L, is one of the most reliable bikes ever made. If I had kept it, it would probably still be running. Same with the Kawasaki KZ400 and 440. Very simple well made parallel twins. Inexpensive Japanese bikes from the early '80s were actually more reliable than pretty much any brand new one, due to their quality and simplicity. The Vulcan 750 competed with the Yamaha Virago 750, Honda Shadow 750, and Suzuki Intruder 750 at the time it was released in 1985. All of those other bikes were considerably simpler, and didn't have nearly as many problems. I had 2 Goldwings, an '85 and a '93, and both were nightmares, mostly due to their complexity. At least the '76-'87 models used belt driven cams, and the belts were easy to replace. But you still had to pull the engine to replace the stator.

You have to remove the coolant reservoir to replace the rear cam chain tensioner. Pretty much any common wrench will fit in there just fine. They should have come with thread locker on the threads. If not, use some blue LockTite on them.
 
#31 ·
The pair I received had Teflon tape on them. I’m sure this is to stop any oil from seeping out. I removed the bolt on the coolant reservoir and tilted it forward and was able to install the tensioner. My concern is the bolts that mount the tensioner to the head are in the way of really getting a snug grip on the lock nut in the center. I have a few 17mm wrenches that fit but no clear angle to get a real good turn on it for piece of mind. I was curious if there was some kind of wrench that I can keep with me if I ever need to tweak the right side. I’ve never claimed to be a mechanic so my tool knowledge in that category is novice at best. I have plenty of other tools but more geared towards carpentry and electrical/electronics. I don’t want it to vibrate loose while I’m riding. Thread lock is a good idea but I thought there might be some kind of specialty wrench out there for this application. I may be overthinking this as I tend to do that
 
#33 ·
No need for threadlock, maybe you can shave a little bit off the outsides of a 17mm wrench using a dremel to get good clearance. Otherwise, even if the bolt loosens up a bit you'll hear it before it causes any damage. The chain won't go completely slack as long as the MCCT is installed on the bike. If you can get it decently snug, you're safe, doesn't have to be torqued down.
 
#34 ·
Thanks, That’s good info, I was worrying a bit because when I was tuning them with the lock nut all the way backed off it looked as if the vibration was backing the main bolt out so I wanted to make sure I wasn’t causing myself more problems.
 
#35 ·
I use an offset box wrench, but as I adjust the bolt tighter as time goes on, I am running into clearance issues where the thickness of the wrench is thicker than the space between the bolt and the lock nut. This wouldn't be an issue if the bolt head was a smaller size than the lock nut, allowing the wrench to slide over it without interference. I just need to get a longer bolt.

I've actually been pondering this clearance problem for a while, and think that it's possible that a piece of spring steel could replace the lock nut. it would be held in place on top of the mcct with the standard mounting bolts, and have a 4-sided protrusion (shaped like an open-ended wrench, but made of sheet metal) that would capture the position of the bolt, preventing it from turning, but could be pulled away from the bolt head with your fingers when you needed to adjust the tension. Haven't made a prototype yet.
 
#36 ·
Surprisingly I understand what you’re saying. That would’ve saved some cursing over the weekend. I get that the MCCTs are aftermarket and technically you shouldn’t need to get a wrench in this spot, but if you look at the front side of the right cylinder it really looks like there is a spot where a CCT could’ve gone. Now before anyone goes into how the internals of the cylinder are positioned I’m sure it’s not that simple, but it begs the question as to why did Kawasaki not design it that way to begin with??
 
#37 ·
There is nothing that cannot be done with a Dremel and a reinforced cutoff wheel. I go through about 20 of those wheels a month. They are $1 apiece. Mine have plenty of room between the head of the bolt and locknut. As for the 2 acorn nuts that hold the tensioner on, you can get a little more clearance by removing the outside one. The other one will hold the tensioner in place just fine while you snug up the locknut. Once adjusted, mine never needed to be adjusted again in over 90,000 miles. I just hope there wasn't much damage to your chains and all of the guides caused by running it loose. Mine never made a noise anywhere near that loud.
 
#38 ·
since the switch it’s been real quiet so we’ll see how long it holds up. Fingers crossed. As far as the wrench I’m going to see what else I have laying around that can be sacrificed. Good project for the next rainy day. But to the point I made earlier, doesn’t this look like a great hassle free spot for a CCT?
 

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#39 · (Edited)
#40 ·
I have a ton of those "tool kit" wrenches, and probably over a dozen never used tool kits removed from bikes that were sold or traded.

Like I said before, there are a LOT of things about the Vulcan engine that don't make sense. It is an engineering nightmare. It may have been designed by several engineers who never communicated with each other, but I personally feel that it went through a lot of changes from the original design. I think it was originally intended to be chain drive, and was converted to shaft drive, which would explain the clunky front bevel gearcase. I also don't believe it was ever meant to be a cruiser engine, which could explain the hydraulic valves and lack of access to the stator. They may have used hydraulic valves because there would have been no way to get to the valves in the Vulcan frame. They just didn't care about the stator. It might also explain the convoluted intake system. Some think it may have originally been intended to be a sportbike engine. I remember a really old article from a magazine test back in the '80s that said it was "a Ferrari engine in a chopped and channeled '50 Mercury coupe" It certainly is an oddball design for a cruiser engine. All other cruiser v-twins are a lot simpler, and make most of their power down low. The Vulcan 750 make it's best power near redline, which explains the four cams, four valves per cylinder, four plugs, two carbs, and super short stroke. But I also find it odd that they used a single crankpin and added a counterbalance instead of using staggered crankpins. While not most cruiser riders cup of tea, it is this characteristic that makes it so good at high speed long distance highway cruising, and so smooth and comfortable at highway speeds. It's like a sport touring bike (which always seemed like an oxymoron to me) that actually has a comfortable riding position. However the Vulcan engine wound up the way it did will probably always remain an enigma.
 
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