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Creamy white stuff coming out of my p-cock

3K views 18 replies 8 participants last post by  Knifemaker 
#1 ·
I had some nasty issues with the 88 I just bought's gas tank as some have seen. I got a new tank, but had to use the old hardware. I found out after 1 single short ride.... I needed to do some work.
 

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#2 · (Edited)
more...........
 

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#5 · (Edited)
Oh man, you're being sarcastic right? Not another ethanol foilhatter, lol... Do you walk on a flat earth too?

One1, that's simple aluminum corrosion from water. Does the photo on the right here look familiar? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide

Moisture, i.e. water, i.e. bad gas or weather exposure and sitting causes that. Ethanol actually helps prevent it by binding with water and pulling it out of your tank harmlessly with the gas. That's why HEET and other gas "dryers" are.... ethanol. It can only bind so much water as an azeotrope, though, before the water falls out of suspension and collects in low spots (left side of tank and petcock, float bowls especially on the left side). Kinda like how brake fluid can absorb moisture and darkens until it reaches its saturation point, then excess water pools in your calipers and pits the pistons (on the left side).

Sources:
Tuned more sets of vn750 carbs than most anyone but Lance (RIP) and majored in chemistry with honors, pre-med.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Have to assume the assload of sarcasm is directed at me.

No foil hattery but yes, ethanol sucks. I know because I've seen and dealt with too much of it. Problems are much, much worse with ethanol in the gas. I don't have to convince you, matters not to me what you believe in. However, repeatedly posting inaccurate 'information' all over the board is not cool at all.

You part of the corn lobby too, 'doctor'?
 
#7 ·
I think that's only a problem if it come out to early. ;)
 
#11 ·
Actually ethanol is horrible for seals and aluminum (you are correct that the white stuff is probably aluminum. It got there from the ethanol though. This is why few planes are running on age85. It can kill ya. ethanol in a gasoline engine sucks in no uncertain terms and should be eliminated from mixing with organic gasoline.

That being said, my fastest sporty on the planet prefers ethanol mixed 93 octane over clean gas 87. Cause it knocks. And when this baby is beating everything on the road...we don't want any knockin...
 
#13 · (Edited)
Well folks, what can I say ... I have a negative response to sarcasm, arrogance, condescending and denigrating remarks when it's absolutely not warranted.

Thanks Goofyfoot for at least stating your opinion on the crappy gas we have to put up with. We are in the majority. Obviously some are too young to have ever seen gas with no vegetables in it.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Well folks, what can I say ... I have a negative response to sarcasm, arrogance, condescending and denigrating remarks when it's absolutely not warranted.
Then what do you call all the crap you said and are still talking about me?

I noticed you still haven't explained how any of that actually works. You can't because it doesn't work that way. Yes, I have educational and lab experience. Why is that a bad thing?


I think it's run its course here ...hopefully....please no more or I'll have to close this thread.
Apparently it hasn't because someone is still being allowed to make personal attacks while I get dogpiled on and warned to shut up. Fair and balanced, I'm sure.

I'm going to reply, but I'm going to do so with proven scientific facts. On top of that, I'm actually going to use references instead of using anecdote and other fallacies.

From what I understand from my years in chemistry class, all alcohols absorb water. So much so, that there's no such thing as "pure alcohol" , even anhydrous alcohol (which means "no water") still has trace amounts of water in it, and will absorb more from the atmosphere.
That understanding is flawed and has little to nothing to do with E10 in an organic hydrocarbon base. Chemical properties vary hugely based on concentration, in some cases at an exponential rather than linear rate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rate_equation In fact, some chemical reactions won't take place AT ALL until a certain concentration is reached.

Yes, there absolutely is pure alcohol. You mean you can't get over 95% with a home built still or "salting out"? Of course, but that doesn't mean you can't get there. That's a myth based on what's achievable by the easiest, cheapest method. And the only reason you never buy 100% pure alcohol is that even reagent grade EtOH is generally sold with denaturants, even from S-A.

This 100% gas is called anhydrous, and it's required by law for mixing with gasoline. The only way you're going to get

We're talking about 10% or less though, and we're talking about it being mixed in with 90%+ other compounds. Ethanol isn't hygroscopic enough at these concentrations to have a meaningful absorption from the atmosphere unless your bike is getting rained *into*. See vapor pressure below..

This in fact is a good thing, as long as you're putting it through a system at a fairly constant rate.
Exactly. That's because it's hydrophilic. It actually helps, especially if you have a water issue with your bike sitting outside or something.

Let it sit for any amount of time, and of course the water can react with whatever can react with it.
Which means to me, don't let it sit in your tank or carbs for a long time.
Think about this for a minute. Gas with water in it so it settles to the bottom of your carbs and tank vs gas with EtOH suspending the water in much lower concentration. Denatured alcohol (ethanol) is used all the time in marine systems to treat fuel: Water in the gas [Archive] - Boat Repair Forum

Actually ethanol is horrible for seals and aluminum
Again, chemistry varies widely based on the concentration of chemicals. E85 and E10 are very different for seals. E10 is just fine and has been for decades, especially since manufacturers changed types of rubber way back when. If you're talking about the cheaper isobutylene/isoprene, that's just as susceptible to drying, shrinking, and cracking from gasoline alone because it contains toluene and other additives. Anyone who has worked on as many old carbs as I have has seen this.
Buna-N is A-okay with E10. Butyl rubber is not, although it isn't compatible with gasoline to begin with. Don't use those seals with either.

Compare these:
eFunda: O-Ring Materials Compatibile with Chemical Ethanol
eFunda: O-Ring Materials Compatibile with Chemical Toluene

Which is worse?

As for aluminum, no. E10 gas is no more corrosive to aluminum than straight gas unless you have something else going on like phase sep. Other contaminants are the problem: Effect of ethanol as gasoline additive on vehicle fuel delivery system corrosion - Jafari - 2009 - Materials and Corrosion - Wiley Online Library

E10 is about as corrosive as gas (iso-octane):
Susceptibility of aluminum alloys to corrosion in simulated fuel blends containing ethanol

(you are correct that the white stuff is probably aluminum. It got there from the ethanol though.
Yes it is, but in most cases it didn't. It gets there from bad gas and people leaving their bikes in the weather. As I said, ethanol doesn't have appreciable moisture absorption from the atmosphere in this concentration and medium especially in a FUEL TANK. Tanks have a vent to equalize pressure, sure, but only a TINY amount is going to change, and that's only if you have a big open space in a nearly empty tank and, even so, most of that space is going to be filled by fuel vapors because of the vapor pressure of isooctane and toluene, and that won't allow much of anything to come in unless you have huge and regular swings in temp during damp conditions, like leaving your bike outside. Due to the vapor pressure of gas, the absorption rate in a closed tank at low concentrations, water isn't sneaking its way in through the vent. Generally, gas is sneaking OUT.

https://www.chem.purdue.edu/gchelp/liquids/vpress.html

https://www.epa.gov/gasoline-standards/gasoline-reid-vapor-pressure

As for suspension, any water present in E10 up to about 6 1/2 OUNCES OF PURE WATER per tank is going to be suspended and pulled through, unless you just let it sit for months or years without fuel stabilizer. And furthermore, if for some reason you buy gas from a station that lets water get in, and you happen to leave the bike for months at a time with bad gas in it, the small amount of moisture present in E10 fuels actually helps inhibit corrosion from the other more corrosive contaminants: Corrosion characteristics of aluminum alloy in bio-ethanol blended gasoline fuel: Part 2. The effects of dissolved oxygen in the fuel

Finally, because someone mentioned elsewhere that this water is harmful to engines, guess what the 2 primary products of combustion are. C8H18 + O2 → CO2 + H2O. You're creating water anyway. On top of that, a lot of people have had limited success decarbonizing combustion chambers with water vapor, and water is injected to lower combustion chamber temps for increase power, decrease knock, and longevity in gas engines, so that water isn't hurting a thing once it's in the intake either.

Yes, I'm sure you've seen carbs and tanks with water damage and they had ethanol. I've also seen shrunk, cracked and rotted seals that had nothing but GAS on them and never even ran dry, and screwed up petcocks and carbs with Al, Cu and Fe corrosion that were NEVER run on ethanol too. Guess what, none of those prove anything.

Anecdote != evidence.

Peer-reviewed and published scientific studies are. This is how the science of it works. Take it or leave it.

I'm done here.
 
#14 ·
I think it's run its course here ...hopefully....please no more or I'll have to close this thread.

From what I understand from my years in chemistry class, all alcohols absorb water. So much so, that there's no such thing as "pure alcohol" , even anhydrous alcohol (which means "no water") still has trace amounts of water in it, and will absorb more from the atmosphere.
This in fact is a good thing, as long as you're putting it through a system at a fairly constant rate. Let it sit for any amount of time, and of course the water can react with whatever can react with it.
Which means to me, don't let it sit in your tank or carbs for a long time.
 
#16 ·
Lol, dude.... Puff down, really. You attacked me with the sarcastic rant first. Would've been easier to state your opinion without all the other garbage.

Someone was crying out for a mod, so I made one last post stating my position on your rant, and I stand by that. I have nothing to prove to you. You'll never convince me that ethanol is panacea. You can keep typing away but I'm not reading the diatribe further.

You also don't need to drag your sarcasm toward me all over the forums.

 
#19 ·
Hex... Nice summation but you seem to believe I'm disagreeing with you when I'm not. I never said ethonal fuel was bad, created white goo, or corroded aluminum.

What I did say was water will react with whatever it reacts with. So will gasoline itself, and any additives in the gas.

They use alcohol to clean out water from tanks in boats...But, THEY DON'T LEAVE IT IN THE TANK....they drain it out. ;)

E10 does not cause all the issues attributed to it. I think I've said this before, please don't drag me into this.....;)
 
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