Phantom Out Of Gas Syndrome (POOGS): Correction and Prevention - Page 2 - Kawasaki Vulcan 750 Forum : Kawasaki VN750 Forums
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post #11 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-25-2011, 03:52 AM
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Another cause of POOGS?

After seafoaming my fuel tank, had the POOGS at half a tank of gas the day after adding seafoam to the tank. Switched to reserve on petcock, nothing. Opened the gas gap, nothing. Wouldn't start after 1-2 dozen attempts to start over about a two hour timeframe until nothing was left in the battery. Got towed home. Trouble-shooting revealed excellent spark and determined it was a fuel problem (and the fuel system was the last thing I worked on).

There are three lines coming from the petcock. One supplying fuel to right carb, one supplying fuel to the left carb, and one that is a vacuum line. I filled the tank with gas and couldn't get any fuel to come out of the petcock at any setting. I then connected my hand vacuum pump to the vaccum line. Gave it a couple of pumps and heard a little "pop" and fuel began to freely flow from both fuel lines. I removed the petcock and dissembled it and cleaned the gunk out of the assembly and rubber gasket. I think seafoaming the tank loosened up stuff in the tank and was deposited in the petcock valve causing it to stick. The petcock consists of two valves, the one you turn to on, off, and reserve position, and the other internal valve, a rubber flap that blocks the flow of gas until a vacuum acts on it to allow gas to flow out of the petcock. That's where the gunk deposited making the flap stick. Put everything back together and it immediately fired up. I haven't had a problem since.

Now I need to perform the gas cap cleaning and vent hose cleaning to cover all my bases. If I'm all wet on this please correct me. I have no owners manual, just the Haynes and Clymers which doesn't go into how the petcock works. This is just what me and my neighbor (an ol' timey mechanic) kinda figured out with a lot of head-scratching. Hope this helps someone and contributes to the POOGS discussion.

To Do List:

-T7 stator mod
-R/R relo
-MF Battery
-voltmeter
-ignition switch
-ACCT's to MCCT's
-LED brake & turns
-spline lube

Did I miss anything?
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post #12 of 81 (permalink) Old 09-10-2011, 03:31 AM
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Unhappy POOGS again X 2

Since my last POOGS incident (I've had 3 total, the first one in above post happened in July) I've had 2 more. All three times it has happened after the bike sat in the hot sun. It's summer in Texas, so it's always been in extreme HEAT; but the three POOGS incidents have happened only after sitting in GLARING SUN.

The first time, while sitting waiting for a tow for 2 hours, I had the gas cap open but still over tank hole. Over the first hour I tried starting the bike several times with a 5-10 minute wait between attempts with no result. In fact, almost completely discharged the battery I tried so many times.

The second time, after pushing the bike a mile I got to a hill (of course after pushing it up the hill!). I coasted down, popped the clutch, and it started right up. Stopped on the way home and filled the tank (all three times it happened at half a tank or little over).

The third time (today) I had just over half a tank. Started fine, got on the highway, drove about 1.5-2 miles and it started POOGSing. Had to pull over on the shoulder. Waited 5 mins with cap off and tried to start it. Nothing. Waited another 5 min with cap off and tried again. Nothing. Fortunately I was 1/2 block from a gas station. Pushed bike to it, filled it up and bike started right up. Drove it home another 9 miles with no problem.

cglennon I have not done your POOGS remedy procedure but I"m going to now. I really think my problem is the rubber vacuum valve inside the petcock (referenced above). If I have POOGS again after that then I will be certain that is the problem, so I'm going to eliminate the vent tube, vent holes and gas cap assembly first. Summer is ending here so that may do it, too. It's strange because I never had any problems with POOGS until I seafoamed the gas tank and my problem started the next day. Do you think it affected the rubber diaphram in the petcock to make it sticky? I know a lot of folks here swear by seafoam, that's why I did it. Kinda wished I hadn't.

In the meantime I will carry a 60cc catheter tip syringe to apply a vacuum to the petcock if it happens again. I'm convinced if I had one today I could have fired it up. My brake bleeder vacuum pump is what fixed it the first time. Don't know really though, not a mechanic, just trying to learn here like many others...

-jim

To Do List:

-T7 stator mod
-R/R relo
-MF Battery
-voltmeter
-ignition switch
-ACCT's to MCCT's
-LED brake & turns
-spline lube

Did I miss anything?

Last edited by Kayakrazy; 09-10-2011 at 03:39 AM.
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post #13 of 81 (permalink) Old 09-10-2011, 12:29 PM
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I may have missed it in your posts, but have you replaced the vaccuum hose to the petcock. If not I would try that too.

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post #14 of 81 (permalink) Old 09-10-2011, 03:52 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayakrazy View Post
Since my last POOGS incident (I've had 3 total, the first one in above post happened in July) I've had 2 more. All three times it has happened after the bike sat in the hot sun. It's summer in Texas, so it's always been in extreme HEAT; but the three POOGS incidents have happened only after sitting in GLARING SUN.

The first time, while sitting waiting for a tow for 2 hours, I had the gas cap open but still over tank hole. Over the first hour I tried starting the bike several times with a 5-10 minute wait between attempts with no result. In fact, almost completely discharged the battery I tried so many times.

The second time, after pushing the bike a mile I got to a hill (of course after pushing it up the hill!). I coasted down, popped the clutch, and it started right up. Stopped on the way home and filled the tank (all three times it happened at half a tank or little over).

The third time (today) I had just over half a tank. Started fine, got on the highway, drove about 1.5-2 miles and it started POOGSing. Had to pull over on the shoulder. Waited 5 mins with cap off and tried to start it. Nothing. Waited another 5 min with cap off and tried again. Nothing. Fortunately I was 1/2 block from a gas station. Pushed bike to it, filled it up and bike started right up. Drove it home another 9 miles with no problem.

cglennon I have not done your POOGS remedy procedure but I"m going to now. I really think my problem is the rubber vacuum valve inside the petcock (referenced above). If I have POOGS again after that then I will be certain that is the problem, so I'm going to eliminate the vent tube, vent holes and gas cap assembly first. Summer is ending here so that may do it, too. It's strange because I never had any problems with POOGS until I seafoamed the gas tank and my problem started the next day. Do you think it affected the rubber diaphram in the petcock to make it sticky? I know a lot of folks here swear by seafoam, that's why I did it. Kinda wished I hadn't.

In the meantime I will carry a 60cc catheter tip syringe to apply a vacuum to the petcock if it happens again. I'm convinced if I had one today I could have fired it up. My brake bleeder vacuum pump is what fixed it the first time. Don't know really though, not a mechanic, just trying to learn here like many others...

-jim
Jim,

Based on your description it does not appear that your bike is suffering from POOGS. POOGS, as it has been described on this site, is caused by a plugged or failed the gas cap venting system. The result is gas tank vacuum or excess pressure. The gas tank vacuum prevents gas from reaching the carbs resulting in engine stall. The gas tank excess pressure (i.e., bike parked in the hot sun for a long time) can result in the flooded carbs or fuel squirting out of places it should not (you did not mention flooding or gas leaking). Also, POOGS is very predictable; 1/2 tank of gas or less, engine stalls, open gas cap, crank, crank, crank, engine starts, close gas cap, ride for a few miles, engine stalls, repeat. In addition, POOGS won't leave you totally stranded, because you can just leave the gas cap open a crack to allow for proper venting.

Your description and work around suggests a failure in the petcock vacuum line or petcock diaphragm. The symptoms are similar to POOGS, but not as predictable. It is possible that the Seafoam loosened up some crud that is now gumming up the petcock, but I don't think that it damaged the petcock diaphragm directly (I use Seafoam in almost every tank full). Might I suggest;
  1. Perform the POOGS gas cap vent system cleaning as outlined in the original thread post. It only takes about 15 minutes and will potentially confirm or rule out POOGS as the source of the problem. Look for any blockage in the gas cap air channel and especially the very small vent hole.
  2. If the gas cap venting system is clear, then replace the vacuum hose leading to the petcock diaphragm and verify that there is indeed vacuum reaching the petcock (you seem to have a good handle on how to do this).
  3. If the above does not work, then drain the gas tank, remove, disassemble and clean the petcock and diaphragm. Replace any parts that appear to be faulty.


Chris Glennon - Portland, OR
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post #15 of 81 (permalink) Old 09-10-2011, 11:58 PM
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I was out doing a little work on the bike today and decided to check the tanks vent and hose.
I tried blowing through the hose and listening at the open tank cap and heard zip, nada, nothing. Then tried sucking on the hose and heard nothing either. I didn`t pull the cap off to do the Poogs service outlined here yet, until I checked with some of you who have done this procedure.

Should I be able hear some air moving through the vent when blowing or sucking on it?
Or is the vent too tiny for the suction developed by sucking on the hose to be noticed?

Gordon

1991 VN 750 -"Cosmic Lady" or "Bad Girl"?
Purchased May 16, 2008
Approx.19,300km (12,000 miles)

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July 13, 2016, Riding on the DARKSIDE now, Classic Radial 165/80-15


TOP TEN THINGS A NEW RIDER/OWNER SHOULD DO. Click on link.
https://www.vn750.com/forum/11-vn750-general-discussion/9127-top-ten-items-you-would-suggest-new-owner-do-his-new-ride.html
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post #16 of 81 (permalink) Old 09-12-2011, 12:17 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlHossCanada View Post
I was out doing a little work on the bike today and decided to check the tanks vent and hose.
I tried blowing through the hose and listening at the open tank cap and heard zip, nada, nothing. Then tried sucking on the hose and heard nothing either. I didn`t pull the cap off to do the Poogs service outlined here yet, until I checked with some of you who have done this procedure.

Should I be able hear some air moving through the vent when blowing or sucking on it?
Or is the vent too tiny for the suction developed by sucking on the hose to be noticed?
If the gas cap is in the open position, then air should move freely through the gas cap vent tube. Otherwise the tube is blocked. If the gas cap is in the closed position, then NO. The only way you would hear anything by blowing through the tube is if the gas tank pressure was less than atmospheric (i.e., a vacuum in the gas tank). I only hear noise (i.e., whistling) at or below 1/2 tank of gas and sometimes just after filling up (i.e., the cold underground stored gas station fuel expanding in my sun soaked gas tank).

If you think that you have POOGS, then clean the gas cap venting system. It only takes about 15 minutes, a phillips head screw driver, a rag to cover the gas tank filler hole and some carb or chlorine free brake cleaner to flush the vent lines.


Chris Glennon - Portland, OR
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post #17 of 81 (permalink) Old 09-18-2011, 10:44 PM
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Thanks Chris, that is what I thought. The cap was open, so either the steel tube or rubber hose is blocked.
Good time to clean the cap vent too.

Gordon

1991 VN 750 -"Cosmic Lady" or "Bad Girl"?
Purchased May 16, 2008
Approx.19,300km (12,000 miles)

H-D windshield
Relocated R/R
MF-AGM battery
Fiamm Freeway Blaster horns
F&S luggage rack and engine guard
Kury Offset Hiway pegs
July 13, 2016, Riding on the DARKSIDE now, Classic Radial 165/80-15


TOP TEN THINGS A NEW RIDER/OWNER SHOULD DO. Click on link.
https://www.vn750.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9127

Last edited by OlHossCanada; 09-18-2011 at 10:49 PM.
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post #18 of 81 (permalink) Old 11-10-2011, 06:58 PM
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Am new to forum, have allready found many helpful articles about my 750, and am definately going to find out more, I am sure. My first battle so far has to do with fuel, ( petcock, or poogs ). Have disambled the pet cock, finding no noticeable problems,ie-trash/gunk or mystery stuf, to be on the safe side have ordered new parts just to be sure. I just bought the bike July 1st 11, 04-750a20 with 928 miles on it, common sense says it sat (in a garage for some time, hense gas gone bad) so gas problems is no surprise. Carbs disasimbled and cleaned, runs perfect till I get down below 1/2 a tank then--- will follow up with the vent cleaning (coming from Las Vegas mine is the cal version, 2 vent tubes off back of tank ). Thanks
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post #19 of 81 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 11:49 AM
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I'd pull the CA emissions stuff off unless you plan to sell it to someone in CA. Heck, you could pull it off and keep it just in case.

I'm keepin' all the left over parts. I'm gonna use 'em to build another bike!
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post #20 of 81 (permalink) Old 11-15-2011, 12:13 PM
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Poogs

Thanks Flight, What might be consecuences of removing the Cal emissions stuf, ie reset air fuel mix,stuf like that?
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