MOSFET VS SERIES - Page 2 - Kawasaki Vulcan 750 Forum : Kawasaki VN750 Forums
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Where does this wire go?
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post #11 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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The R/R breaks the circuit of the stator output. So, without a complete circuit the stator does not generate and voltage. From my understanding this occurs many times a second and only allows the power that is needed to enter the circuit.
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post #12 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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I responded before reading all the responses. Yes the mosfet runs cooler because it is more efficient. And also because of its better design it outputs a more even voltage. But it is a shunt type of R/R so the stator produces 100% all the time. "Where does the extra voltage go?" By having a incomplete circuit the electrons do not flow through the circuit, so no charge is produced. It is like touching a hot wire in a breaker box, if you are not grounded the circuit is incomplete and you recieve no shock (i.e. no voltage transfer). The people who work on the high tension wires work on them hot. Their bucket truck is not grounded due to the rubber tires so they get no shock. Denny; Yes, the stator is still spinning but without the complete circuit the electrons taken from the field have no where to go, so no current flow. I to found this hard to beleive at first, but I have spent a month reading all I can on this subject. Daniel
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post #13 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 03:05 PM
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So answer this, why when you disconnect the stator from the r&r with the engine running do you get current when you test it. Also, is the current off the stator AC or DC?
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post #14 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smltownr View Post
I responded before reading all the responses. Yes the mosfet runs cooler because it is more efficient. And also because of its better design it outputs a more even voltage. But it is a shunt type of R/R so the stator produces 100% all the time. "Where does the extra voltage go?" By having a incomplete circuit the electrons do not flow through the circuit, so no charge is produced. It is like touching a hot wire in a breaker box, if you are not grounded the circuit is incomplete and you recieve no shock (i.e. no voltage transfer). The people who work on the high tension wires work on them hot. Their bucket truck is not grounded due to the rubber tires so they get no shock. Denny; Yes, the stator is still spinning but without the complete circuit the electrons taken from the field have no where to go, so no current flow. I to found this hard to beleive at first, but I have spent a month reading all I can on this subject. Daniel
was going to post a fairly technical explanation of what you just said.

unless there is a place for the energy created to go, there is no current flow (and therefor no power provided).

another way to think of it is the outlet in your wall... has 120v 60hz single phase power on it whenever the circuit breaker is closed. but no energy is being used anywhere until you plug something into it. Only then will current flow in the circuit.

our stator produces around 3 phase ac power, at a varying voltage and frequency (varies only due to the speed of rotation of the magnetic field from the rotor as it spins with the engine speed). Take them 3 yellow wires and disconnect them, and while there is voltage being produced, no work can be done as there is no current flow.

since I have down time right now due to stator and reg failure, it almost make me want to design and build a regulator that does not shunt excess power as the oem does, but instead limits the current flow out of the stator to control the charging of the battery.

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post #15 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smltownr View Post
The R/R breaks the circuit of the stator output. So, without a complete circuit the stator does not generate and voltage. From my understanding this occurs many times a second and only allows the power that is needed to enter the circuit.
wrong, it is always immersed in the magnetic fields and Potential is always there, voltage is always present. Check it on a 200v AC scale with the regulator unhooked and see if there is voltage there.

You need to read a little further , if you can switch the magnetic field off no voltage will be made but you simply cannot switch off a permanent magnet. I think you are reading about systems with battery excited field coils such as an automotive style alternator which the windings do the spinning inside of a set of switchable field coils. A few bikes have this type of system but the VN 750 does not. Series regulators are for that type of system, with what you are stuck with the Mosfet is The best Choice but any regulator you put on it has to shunt the excess voltage to ground with the type of system most bikes run. The old shunt style works but the Metal Oxide Semiferrous Field Effect Transistor(Mosfet) with its more advanced switching method is a lot more efficient than the older shunt style RR is.




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post #16 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 04:42 PM
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Denny is correct about the voltage always being on the stator outputs, and why.

Now, as for how the mosfet regulators are more efficient than the older style regulators (even though both are shunt style, and work essentially the same way), we have to realize that MosFet transistors can be turned off at any point during the current flow thru them. Unlike older style regulators that use SCR's to shunt the power to ground, once an SCR is turn on, its stays on until the flow of current stops, which in our system would be when the voltage on that leg of the stator reaches 0 volts. remember that we output AC from our stator, and that voltage will change from 70 or so volts to -70 or so volts and back at a frequency which is in direct correlation to engine rpm. With SCR's in the regulator to control current, we can conceivably be stuck flowing current thru it for much longer than we really need.

you can use series regulation with 3 phase permanent magnet stators such as ours, and in theory, would be easier on the stator than shunt style regulators (which always load the stator to a higher degree than needed to provide all electrical needs) because it would actually limit current flow from the stator to what is needed at that time.

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post #17 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-14-2015, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganteddybear View Post
Denny is correct about the voltage always being on the stator outputs, and why.

Now, as for how the mosfet regulators are more efficient than the older style regulators (even though both are shunt style, and work essentially the same way), we have to realize that MosFet transistors can be turned off at any point during the current flow thru them. Unlike older style regulators that use SCR's to shunt the power to ground, once an SCR is turn on, its stays on until the flow of current stops, which in our system would be when the voltage on that leg of the stator reaches 0 volts. remember that we output AC from our stator, and that voltage will change from 70 or so volts to -70 or so volts and back at a frequency which is in direct correlation to engine rpm. With SCR's in the regulator to control current, we can conceivably be stuck flowing current thru it for much longer than we really need.

you can use series regulation with 3 phase permanent magnet stators such as ours, and in theory, would be easier on the stator than shunt style regulators (which always load the stator to a higher degree than needed to provide all electrical needs) because it would actually limit current flow from the stator to what is needed at that time.
I can agree with that but for all practical purposes , the Mosfet is the most practical and economical solution for what we are dealing with here.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that conventional wisdom on here has always promoted dropping the load off the electrical system and thereby creating "spare" power. I am going to say that that only causes more power to be shunted to ground and for lack of a better term" be burned off in the form of heat ", raising the temp in both the RR and stator.

The ideal situation to keep the charging system to run it's coolest is to keep the load, lights and stereo's and whatever other accessories you have running at or near the charging system's capacity and sending less of it to ground. That's in theory as well. It is very hard to do this with the variance in output according to engine rpm. A mosfet regulator does handle this chore better with a more accurate control of output voltage to the battery.




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post #18 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-15-2015, 08:43 AM
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First off....the Vulcan stator does get cooled by oil OD.

Denny, the stator is not always "producing power" as long as the motor is spinning...Because if he voltage is going nowhere it's not doing "work" (and thus not producing heat.)
If the r/r sends excess voltage to ground, the stator is "working"...if the r/r can "turn off" the voltage coming from the stator (as a light switch disconnects power) then no work is being done and the stator should not be producing heat.

If you disconnect the stator wires when the motor is turning by definition no voltage is flowing...the stator is not doing any "work" and won't be until you connect something to it...like a light or .....a voltage tester.

If it was producing voltage continually while not connected wouldn't it like build up? Where are all those electrons it's "producing" go? A fixed magnet and wire coil, or a spinnimg magnet and fixed coil only flow elections if there's somewhere they can go. Yes it does have "potential power" but that means it's at zero until it's released somehow.
I don't understand a lot about electronics but I do understand physics.

We here believe stator failure is related to heat. But no one has any data to prove its from the stator itself while it's doing "work" or from the hot oil it sits in.
All failures seem to caused by parts of the stator wires loosing their insulation and shorting out. No one has information on how hot the stator gets from doing its normal job, so it's not fair to assume installing an r/r that "turns off" the stator will make it last longer when it's still possible the insulation decays because of the oil and not because the wires getting hot from operation.

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Last edited by Knifemaker; 01-15-2015 at 09:35 AM.
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post #19 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-15-2015, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knifemaker View Post
First off....the Vulcan stator does get cooled by oil OD.

Denny, the stator is not always "producing power" as long as the motor is spinning...Because if he voltage is going nowhere it's not doing "work" (and thus not producing heat.)
If the r/r sends excess voltage to ground, the stator is "working"...if the r/r can "turn off" the voltage coming from the stator (as a light switch disconnects power) then no work is being done and the stator should not be producing heat.

If you disconnect the stator wires when the motor is turning by definition no voltage is flowing...the stator is not doing any "work" and won't be until you connect something to it...like a light or .....a voltage tester.

If it was producing voltage continually while not connected wouldn't it like build up? Where are all those electrons it's "producing" go? A fixed magnet and wire coil, or a spinnimg magnet and fixed coil only flow elections if there's somewhere they can go. Yes it does have "potential power" but that means it's at zero until it's released somehow.
I don't understand a lot about electronics but I do understand physics.

We here believe stator failure is related to heat. But no one has any data to prove its from the stator itself while it's doing "work" or from the hot oil it sits in.
All failures seem to caused by parts of the stator wires loosing their insulation and shorting out. No one has information on how hot the stator gets from doing its normal job, so it's not fair to assume installing an r/r that "turns off" the stator will make it last longer when it's still possible the insulation decays because of the oil and not because the wires getting hot from operation.
you did not read what I said said voltage which is called potential is always produced when a coil is immersed n a magnetic field even if it doesn't flow. you have coils sitting there with electrons moving back and forth with no where to go and even if you think you have a working knowledge of physics electron movement produces heat. How much I don't know neither do I without doing a lot of math (and i'm not going to)

I did not say amps or watts. Which is what current is measured in. What causes stator failure is an open ended question because we have several reasons why they could fail. but heat seems to be the number one culprit since the insulation is usually black and crispy where it fails. Low engine oil, dirty oil,over heated oil, bad quality insulation a failed and grounded RR and a whole plethora of factors .

Being able to switch an alternator on and off by collapsing the fields around the stator would likely increase the useable life of an alternator, but I have to agree that opening up the output leads completely is likely to do very little .

Back to your working knowledge of Physics, how does a micro wave heat food ? It causes the electrons and the rest of the molecule to move around internally and cause heat to be produced by friction internally. The same basic principle applies to the stator but just by a different method.

You need to study on the Ohms law and the principles of inductance and reluctance while you are at it. And by reluctance , I am not talking about your reluctance to admit you aren't smarter than everyone on this board. I'll admit you are a pretty smart guy but there are others on here who are too, of whom I am not any where near the cream of the crop. My advantage , I know that and defer to ones who do know a particular subject better than I.

I'll debate electric theories with you any time you are up to the task but this is a thread about Series and Mosfet RR's. I gave my opinion and solid reasons why backed by the facts. Ultimately it's up to the OP as to what he does.




If you see it on my bike I did it
VROC#30324
92 vn750(sold)
Current ride 05 1500 Classic FI
lovin' the new scoot



Quote:
"When all is said and done,usually more is said than done" UNK
Click on one x and drag to the other to read between them.

Psalm 40:1...
XI waited patiently for the Lord; and he turned unto me, and heard my cry. X
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post #20 of 52 (permalink) Old 01-15-2015, 01:27 PM
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http://www.crowitis.com/images/About...tem%20Load.pdf

Read the third paragraph. Maybe they are wrong and you are right. I don't know. I said I don't understand electrical stuff but do understand physics...wasn't saying I was right,just that's how it looks from a physics viewpoint.

A microwave cooks food because it converts ALOT of electrical energy into those microwaves...decrease the power and it cooks slower...so not sure what you're saying here now.

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Last edited by Knifemaker; 01-15-2015 at 01:33 PM.
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