Possible Fatal Operator Error...??? - Kawasaki Vulcan 750 Forum : Kawasaki VN750 Forums
VN750 General Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 06:51 AM Thread Starter
Old Twistie Sticks Rider
 
Old Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Country Created by Geniuses, But Run by Idiots...!!!
Posts: 5,072
iTrader: (2)
 
Possible Fatal Operator Error...???

OK, I've been friends on this forum for years and wouldn't post this on an unfriendly forum......
Yesterday I made a bad mistake on the Sportster, one that I had made once before on the VN750 that I remember, and I would remember...
I know EQ and several others here love riding the twisties...
I also love riding the twisty blacktop back roads and am fairly agressive not overly though, I don't think, I always look a good bit ahead (down the road) as best as I can, but when I come on a sharp right hand turn with a bluff or bank or some sort of sight blockage on the right and can't see ahead I look down at the road directly in front of me, there seems to lie the problem, twice I have failed to keep the bike in my lane and crossed over into the on coming traffic lane which sooner or later there will be a meeting, and I know who would loose......
I don't know if I just have my head where it shouldn't be, or if I just need to slow up more for that type curve, or I guess try to correct both...
I know one thing it sure sends chills up your spine as you can't see what is coming, and just say a very fast prayer and be thankful for the vacant lane and very thin traffic...
It has only slipped up on me twice in all my years of riding, but believe you me that is enough, the first time was on the VN and I almost went under the guard rail on the other side, yesterday I just went about center in the on coming lane, still just as scary though...
I guess I just need to be more cautious in those blind right handers, but they just seem to slip up on me...
Any of y'all ever do this, or is it only me and my lose of consentration or whatever, if not, how do y'all avoid this very dangerous and scary type situation...???
Thanks and have a good one...Tater...

Southern Central Tennessee.......
Now on the Dark Side......
Girl's Bike 09 Sporty xl 1200 Custom...33k + & clickin......
Sportster Owner/Rider since age 72...lol... Rider since Simplex...???
09-xl1200 "C" Vivid Black, Cast wheels w/19" Frt., SE-Stage 1+, X14iEDs...
MicroTach +, Higher wider H-bars, GPS Mt., Mustach bar Hwy. pegs...
Viking Shock cutout Saddlebags, Rear Mt. Signal Lt. Kit, Fork Brace...
RoadKing Air Shocks, Mustang Seat, Progressive Fork Springs...
Old Dog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 07:19 AM
On His Lady Vulcan
 
wkrizan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Washington State
Posts: 1,647
iTrader: (10)
 
Hey Dog, yes please try and improve your style with this type of situation. I for one enjoy reading most of your posts, you are usually up beat and have kind words for all. We (I) want you to continue to be with us on here and enjoy many more years of riding. Take them twisties a little slower if thats what it calls for and keep your eyes and head open Bro.

"You came out of your mom looking like SHlT. She thought you were beautiful. Don't know what scared me most, your looks or her judgment."











Pictures of the "Ladies"
wkrizan is offline  
post #3 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 08:12 AM
Giggity!
 
kanuck69's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ohio, Zanesville
Posts: 4,307
iTrader: (24)
     
Garage
kanuck69 is offline  
 
post #4 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 08:30 AM
Senior Member
 
LibertyPilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Titusville, New Jersey
Posts: 6,435
iTrader: (0)
   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Dog View Post
OK, I've been friends on this forum for years and wouldn't post this on an unfriendly forum......
Yesterday I made a bad mistake on the Sportster, one that I had made once before on the VN750 that I remember, and I would remember...
I know EQ and several others here love riding the twisties...
I also love riding the twisty blacktop back roads and am fairly agressive not overly though, I don't think, I always look a good bit ahead (down the road) as best as I can, but when I come on a sharp right hand turn with a bluff or bank or some sort of sight blockage on the right and can't see ahead I look down at the road directly in front of me, there seems to lie the problem, twice I have failed to keep the bike in my lane and crossed over into the on coming traffic lane which sooner or later there will be a meeting, and I know who would loose......
I don't know if I just have my head where it shouldn't be, or if I just need to slow up more for that type curve, or I guess try to correct both...
I know one thing it sure sends chills up your spine as you can't see what is coming, and just say a very fast prayer and be thankful for the vacant lane and very thin traffic...
It has only slipped up on me twice in all my years of riding, but believe you me that is enough, the first time was on the VN and I almost went under the guard rail on the other side, yesterday I just went about center in the on coming lane, still just as scary though...
I guess I just need to be more cautious in those blind right handers, but they just seem to slip up on me...
Any of y'all ever do this, or is it only me and my lose of consentration or whatever, if not, how do y'all avoid this very dangerous and scary type situation...???
Thanks and have a good one...Tater...
Hey OldDog, glad you're ok. Let me start by saying, thank you for your honesty. Yes, its a good thing we're mostly all friends here and you knowing it was ok to post this shows that. I think most of us are at the point were we see these posts as great reminders and so keep the ball busting to a minimum. One big happy right?

Ok were I you, I'd be more cautious not just in the blind right handers, in all blind turns period, but in any and all questionable turns. I understand aggressive, I just started testing the lean on my meanie and have even been to the point were I feel my knee start to drift away from the tank. The difference here is, I'm on roads I've riddin countless times.

When I'm about to enter a blind turn I come off the throttle a little bit until more of the turn is visible. You can always get back on the throttle but not necessarily off it if you lose the turn. If you feel yourself losing the angle of the turn and you're at maximum lean, SLOW DOWN! With your "plenty of years" riding you should be ok taking speed and bank out of a turn at the same time to tighten up the turn and regain the angle. You might not even need your breaks, taking some twist out of the throttle might do it. When you do, check your mirrors for stupid cagers and stay OUT of oncoming traffic. Goosing the throttle down a little before entering the questionable turn is where it ALL begins, its key. No rider, young, old, experienced, noober, on an 1800, a 500, rockin' a rocket, or a cruiser needs to flirt with oncoming in any turn, let alone a blind one. You always have good advice for us here not to mention ready wit. We'd like to keep ya around for a while.

Stay safe out there man, if you have to, take it easy. Don't ride outside your or your bikes capability. If you need to take the sportster back to the practice area to really get to know your acceptable turning radius, go ahead and do that. It beats the alternative. Good luck.

Last edited by LibertyPilot; 11-09-2009 at 08:36 AM.
LibertyPilot is offline  
post #5 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 08:56 AM
Member
 
waggy1236's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Brooksville,Florida
Posts: 79
iTrader: (0)
 
Glad to see you have identified the problem, now you can correct it before it gets really serious. A sharp right hand turn is a potential killer. It leaves you with no escape route, if you go down, you will slide right into the oncomming traffic. Please be careful. I'm almost paranoid about dirt or sand from the shoulder being on the pavement in a right hand curve.

57 years experience,Zero accidents. Starting with 1947 Indian Chief. Now VN750 , V65 Magna, Burgman scooter.
waggy1236 is offline  
post #6 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 09:10 AM
Members who have donated towards server costs
 
flitecontrol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Monroe, LA
Posts: 4,715
iTrader: (14)
 
Glad you're OK. Have had the same problem, sometimes due to sand or gravel being washed into my lane and my efforts to avoid it. Really gets your attention when you consider what could have happened.

IIRC, David Hough, in his book Proficient Motorcycling, recommends: 1. slow down when approaching the turn, 2. keep the bike in the left hand portion of your lane for as long as possible before you begin the turn, allowing you to see father into the turn (and the cage that is cutting into your lane or other hazard ahead), and 3. don't accelerate until you can see the end of the turn.

I'm keepin' all the left over parts. I'm gonna use 'em to build another bike!
_____________________________________________
"Black Beauty"
1989 VN750 acquired December, 2008, 6,711 miles
Currently 23,298 miles

Old Blue
2001 Honda CMX250 Rebel acquired July, 2008

1987 VN750 project bike, acquired August, 2009, 33,000 miles and balancer sticking out of the case, currently awaiting attention and parts
flitecontrol is offline  
post #7 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 09:58 AM
Members who have donated towards server costs
 
fergy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kyle, Texas
Posts: 4,054
iTrader: (3)
   
I agree the key is to keep the speed down when approaching any blind curve, especially right turns as you are so vulnerable to oncoming traffic and to what lies ahead in your lane. When I first started riding I was on a trip with 4-5 other folks out in Leakey, an area where there are plenty of 10 mph curves, and bluffs lined the right side of this particular stretch. I thought I was doing pretty good keeping inside of my skill level and all, and I had fallen a little behind the group, which I was fine with, but as I came around one of those blind right curves, everyone in front of me had nearly stopped. I reacted a little slow getting my bike upright (pointed into the oncoming lane) and was able to stop, but I was about two feet over the center line--and--next to the stopped group that had been in front of me with no where to go. They shuffled to the right to make room for me and luckily no one was coming the other way for the few seconds it took for me to get back on our side of the road. There were hundreds of bikes going both ways all day on those roads so I knew someone was looking out for me! The rest of the time I would just take my time and stay in my comfort zone, typically falling back in the group and making up the space on the straight lines when I could. That's pretty much how I ride even now. I stay in my zone and don't let the group I'm with push or pull me out of my zone. I'm not usually holding up the group, but if I don't like a particular blind curve or road condition, I ride slow enough that I can feel like I am in control of my situation, and never worry about what the folks behind or in front of me think about it! Because of this, I usually choose to bring up the rear in a group ride. I have never liked pressure behind me, whether it's bikers or cagers.

Fergy
Kyle, TX VN750.com member #707 VROC#19556
2002 VN1500 Classic
Spline Lube Procedure, with photos, R/R Relocation and Coil Mod
Rusty Tank Cleaning!
Electrical Fault Finding Flowchart
SEAFOAM JUNKIE!



Last edited by fergy; 11-09-2009 at 10:00 AM.
fergy is offline  
post #8 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 12:01 PM
Undercover Sportbiker
 
AJCruzin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: SoCal (SF Valley) 91343
Posts: 1,097
iTrader: (19)
 
Old Dog - you are mos def NOT alone. The problem with right handers is that you can't see through the turn. The keys are:

1. Apex as late as possible
2. Start the curve from as close to center as possible, to increase the line foi sight
3. Always go slow in, fast out
4. Look through the turn, even if it means looking at the hillside (visualize what's on the other side)

The problem with the blind right handers in some of my favorite areas is that 50% of the time there's gonna be a cyclist (pedal kind) somewhere in the middle of the curve.

If you already have a good lean on, and are starting to drift towards the center line, try hanging off the bike ito the turn, and look harder through it. I don't advocate rolling off the throttle, even though it can be done safely in some situations. Never forget that the bike can absolutely make the turn, you just have to accept that as fact and then make it happen. Since my return to riding, I've been in a couple situations that in the old days I would have gone over the line. Now, instead of getting panicked and throwing out the anchors, I adjust my form and body position and focus on where I need/want to go. Knock on wood the bike always comes back into line.

AJCruzin is offline  
post #9 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 12:23 PM
Senior Member
 
cglennon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 736
iTrader: (0)
 
Send a message via Skype™ to cglennon
Quote:
Originally Posted by flitecontrol View Post
Glad you're OK. Have had the same problem, sometimes due to sand or gravel being washed into my lane and my efforts to avoid it. Really gets your attention when you consider what could have happened.

IIRC, David Hough, in his book Proficient Motorcycling, recommends: 1. slow down when approaching the turn, 2. keep the bike in the left hand portion of your lane for as long as possible before you begin the turn, allowing you to see father into the turn (and the cage that is cutting into your lane or other hazard ahead), and 3. don't accelerate until you can see the end of the turn.
I agree with 1 + 2, but not 3.

1. Brake and slow before turn - allows for turn assessment and acceleration through the turn

2. Initiate right turn from left portion of lane and as late as possible - This give you maximum time to scope out the turn. You want to set your course once. It also allows for a late entry which increases the lean angle, but shortens the time the bike is leaned making the turn safer (bike is leaned for less time).

3. I have been taught and verified that smooth acceleration is required once the bike begins to lean (i.e., beginning the turn) through at least the apex of the turn (when the bike begins its to return to upright). There are lots reasons why, but here are a few;
  • The engine RPMs increase (due to the smaller diameter of the inside of the tire the bike is using in a lean), but the bike speed will decrease (due to physical forces, friction, etc.). Throttle on to compensate.
  • KEY: The rear tire is responsible for most of the steering once the bike is in full lean (note that the front tire is still counter steering). The rear tire actually pushes the bike through the turn. The rear is also responsible for most of the gyroscopic action for the bike. Throttle on to maintain course.
  • The bike suspension should be loaded during turn so that the mechanics and engineering of the bike can do their jobs (optimum 40/60 split). Throttle on to accomplish.

All of the above require proper throttle control at the beginning and during the turn. Come off throttle before the apex of the turn and you throw one or more of these out of balance, the bike will drift toward the center line (for a right turn) and you'll be faced with a mid-turn correction (not good).


Chris Glennon - Portland, OR
cglennon is offline  
post #10 of 20 (permalink) Old 11-09-2009, 06:43 PM
Old Fart
 
Knifemaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Catawissa, MO
Posts: 11,786
iTrader: (4)
     
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by cglennon View Post
[*]KEY: The rear tire is responsible for most of the steering once the bike is in full lean (note that the front tire is still counter steering)[/I]. The rear tire actually pushes the bike through the turn. The rear is also responsible for most of the gyroscopic action for the bike. Throttle on to maintain course.
[*]The bike suspension should be loaded during turn so that the mechanics and engineering of the bike can do their jobs (optimum 40/60 split). .
OK , that first bit of stuff is BS. Sorry. The rear is not responsible for the steering...EVER ....and once in a lean you have hopefully STOPPED countersteering and have applied pressure to hold the wheels IN LINE.

And Ideally...the weight/loading should be 50/50 ...not 40/60.

This is all of course useless info for Old Dog, who just needs to SLOW DOWN for blind turns. You should always try and keep right because if you can not see what is coming, you should assume it might be a bit over the line too... Brake harder for blind turns, don't ride them at 100% unless you are on a track and know that nothing is there.

Lost a freind a few years back ...no one really sure what happened, other than the fact that he was going through a sharp right turn, and somehow ended up on the ground, slide into an oncoming car.

I prefer that be the only person I know that goes that way, so slow the F up Old Dog, whack the throttle on turns you can see through........


KM

If You Are Not Sure If I Am Joking or Not....I AM !!Photos:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/knifemaker1954/sets/
Knifemaker is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Kawasaki Vulcan 750 Forum : Kawasaki VN750 Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

Once registered, your User Name"cannot be changed". We can make exceptions within 7 days, but after that, it is set in stone.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome