How many times have i heard that story! Is there something going on with people when they drive a car and pull out into a motorcycle and crash him at highway speeds? I have drove cars all my life and Rode bikes for quite some time. There has never been an instance when i did not see a motorcycle or pedal cyclist, so whats going on there then???
I'm confused about the excuse that, The bike wasent 'big enough or loud enough'
Well excuse me mr 'Cell phone', but W.T.F.

When we realized my 87 year old father was running stop signs and red lights, we got his license pulled. Fortunately, he didn't hurt anyone before this happened. Very young and very old drivers are not as aware of their surroundings as folks in between these extremes. A 17 year old rider was killed not long ago when a woman just a little older pulled out in front of him. She didn't see him. Don't know how fast he was going. Not sure if she was driving while distracted or not, but cell phone came to mind when I heard about it.

I have been driving from the age of 14 or 15. And I have to admit that I have pulled out in the way of a car or two. Never saw them. Why I never saw them, I just don't know. Never gotten hit and I have never hit anyone. So I understand how a bike can be hard to see.

When we realized my 87 year old father was running stop signs and red lights, we got his license pulled. Fortunately, he didn't hurt anyone before this happened. Very young and very old drivers are not as aware of their surroundings as folks in between these extremes. A 17 year old rider was killed not long ago when a woman just a little older pulled out in front of him. She didn't see him. Don't know how fast he was going. Not sure if she was driving while distracted or not, but cell phone came to mind when I heard about it.

How do these people have driving liscences in these conditions? Are they not revoked? With respect flite!

I have been driving from the age of 14 or 15. And I have to admit that I have pulled out in the way of a car or two. Never saw them. Why I never saw them, I just don't know. Never gotten hit and I have never hit anyone. So I understand how a bike can be hard to see.

Thats a good point niterider, come to think of it, with all the gear on in the wintertime, it is a bit hard to look left and right, i too had to jump on the throttle a time or two. Normally i see them but i have just commited to take off, so it's Oh no!! Vroooom!:rockon:

think of it this way... people get complacent with their surroundings.... thats when bad things happen...

This is how I see it for the average driver.....
When people who don't ride, or closely know someone who does ride, are driving in their car, they have their "Ring of Protection" around them.... their steel caged shield which will stop them from being hurt by objects smaller than they are.
So, they have little worry or concern about these smaller objects (which it just so happens motorcycles fall into this category).
In having little concern about these smaller objects, when there is one in their path, they see it, but don't recognise it as being a threat, so their mind just kind of dismisses it as something to not watch out for.
In doing this, they end up saying...... "I never even saw the motorcycle."

Chappy, if you are asking if licenses are revoked as someone reaches an advanced age, the answer is no. Florida (where my father lives) used to have a requirement that all drivers above a certain age (70, I think) would have to take the driving test every 4-5 years when their license had to be renewed. Didn't take long for the many retirees in Florida to get that changed! (Ice cream!!) Now the interval is around 16 years. Do the math: pass at 70 and you're good to go until 86! Pass at 86, and you don't need the test until 102! Folks are very protective of what they regard as their freedom to drive. Actually, it's a privledge, not a right, but that is lost on most folks.

If you are asking about the bike accident, both people involved were licensed. The young woman could have been charged with negligent vehicular homicide, but wound up paying a fine and was good to go; no jail time, still has her license as far as I know. I read in the paper fairly regularly about people getting arrested for 4th, 5th, and even 7th DWI. yes, their license has been pulled but they drive anyway. Put those slobs in jail before they kill someone!

Seems it's covered. I've nothing to add.

How do these people have driving liscences in these conditions? Are they not revoked? With respect flite!

Here in Alberta as you get to an advanced age the licence is renewed for shorter periods, down to even 1 or 2 years. Typically they only have to pass a vision test, some times a medical, but usually not a driving test.

My brothers and I had to take our mother`s car away when she was about 74 and had 2 accidents in one day. Scraped paint on another car in a parking lot first, and knocked the passenger door mirror off her car while coming over to my place, but didn`t know what she hit or where it happened.

Whether driving, riding or walking, when I cross an intersection, I make eye contact with approaching drivers, before moving out in front of them. I`m surprised at how many people say they have never thought of looking inside the car to see the driver, when this topic comes up in conversation.

So ride like you are invisible, and everybody is out to get you!! :doh:

Folks are very protective of what they regard as their freedom to drive. Actually, it's a privledge, not a right, but that is lost on most folks!

I will have to disagree with you on that one point Flite. According to our own constitution it is a right. It's a shame though that some desire to push their rights to the point of endangering others but it is a right of ours none the less.

Peace :beerchug:

I will have to disagree with you on that one point Flite. According to our own constitution it is a right. It's a shame though that some desire to push their rights to the point of endangering others but it is a right of ours none the less.

Peace :beerchug:

What does it mean when it is a right?
If it were a right could one do it with out a license???

What does it mean when it is a right?
If it were a right could one do it with out a license???

The license is is a touchy subject but as it is written no you still need the proper documentation. If you have it then YES its a right.

"Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the constitutions of numerous states. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present, generally has the right to leave that state, travel wherever the citizen is welcome, and, with proper documentation, return to that state at any time; and also (of equal or greater importance) to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state."

I have no issues spending the money for my licenses for it does help improve roads and employ people within our states. I guess its all in one interpretation of the right to travel but as I see it they can not stop me from traveling if I deem fit.

Peace :beerchug:

Niterider, you hit the nail on the head. We have the right to own firearms, and no license is required to do so. Now, if you want to exercise the privlege of going hunting, you have to obtain a license! We have the right to travel on public property anywhere within our nation (national security zones excepted). However, if we want the convenience of driving there, we have to get a driver's license. Driving is a privledge.

Oops! Wkrizan, you snuck in there while I was responding to nite. A right cannot be taken away, except by a court (for example, felons cannot posess firearms). A privledge can be revoked, like my father's license for due cause. There was an appeal process open to him, but there was no legal remedy available to him; he couldn't fight it in court.

The license is is a touchy subject but as it is written no you still need the proper documentation. If you have it then YES its a right.

"Freedom of movement, mobility rights or the right to travel is a human rights concept which is respected in the constitutions of numerous states. It asserts that a citizen of a state, in which that citizen is present, generally has the right to leave that state, travel wherever the citizen is welcome, and, with proper documentation, return to that state at any time; and also (of equal or greater importance) to travel to, reside in, and/or work in, any part of the state the citizen wishes without interference from the state."

I have no issues spending the money for my licenses for it does help improve roads and employ people within our states. I guess its all in one interpretation of the right to travel but as I see it they can not stop me from traveling if I deem fit.

Peace :beerchug:

Yes, but that right can be excercised without a drivers license. There are buses ect. other ways to travel. Would that not make the driver's license a preveleage??

If you going to take it to that extreme, then hand guns, which is also a firearm, must be registered with the federal and state government. Without registering it one can not purchase it by law but its still a your right to own them correct? How is that different than purchasing the proper documents to travel?

Peace :beerchug:

If you going to take it to that extreme, then hand guns, which is also a firearm, must be registered with the federal and state government. Without registering it one can not purchase it by law but its still a your right to own them correct? How is that different than purchasing the proper documents to travel?

Peace :beerchug:

For now, I believe you are right. We still have the right to have a gun. I was looking that up last night. I have never had a hand gun so I am not up on the laws in that area.
I found this.
The US Supreme Court has long since ruled that obtaining a drivers license is a "privilege," not a "right." If the license were a right, states would be required to find a way for people with physical, emotional, or medical handicaps to get licenses somehow. It would be required to make accommodations for people who could not pass the minimum tests to receive a driver's license.

I mean lets face it and be real, I see both sides of this coin. 1st. the constitution was written when the only means of trasportation was by horse...lol. So they do need to update it or else a very good lawyer can and should always win the argument in court. 2nd. I see it as a privilaged right, I do. I just dont want anyone threating me by saying its a privilage that I am able to drive and they can take that away from me at their whim, that would totaly piss me off. I feel for your old man Flite but understand the need to do what they did. Damn am I sounding wishy washy on this subject or what?...LOL

Peace :beerchug:

Here in Michigan having a driver's license is called a privilege, however there are court cases declaring that driving for non-profit purposes a right. Also, if driving was a privilege the government could take away licenses without any due reason.

This is one of those subjects in which Google is your friend....

I mean lets face it and be real, I see both sides of this coin. 1st. the constitution was written when the only means of trasportation was by horse...lol. So they do need to update it or else a very good lawyer can and should always win the argument in court. 2nd. I see it as a privilaged right, I do. I just dont want anyone threating me by saying its a privilage that I am able to drive and they can take that away from me at their whim, that would totaly piss me off. I feel for your old man Flite but understand the need to do what they did. Damn am I sounding wishy washy on this subject or what?...LOL

Peace :beerchug:

My Dad has early stage Alzheimer's/dementia, which affects the judgement area of his brain. In spite of the fact that he runs red lights and stop signs, he thinks he's a great driver! My sister and I reported him to the state so they would pull his license. It wasn't an easy decision to make, but it was the right one (yeah, we were wishy washy too). When he kept driving, we took his car. We have arranged alternative transportation for him, so he can still get out and go. He just doesn't have the freedom to get in a car and go anywhere he likes anytime he likes. This is a good thing, because he would have eventually hurt or killed someone if he had kept driving. BTW, he reported his father for the same reasons many years ago!

Many states have a "point" system that awards so may points for traffic violations (speeding, DWI, etc.). Accumulate enough points, and they take your license for a period of time. You can still travel, but you can't legally operate a vehicle.

My Dad has early stage Alzheimer's/dementia, which affects the judgement area of his brain. In spite of the fact that he runs red lights and stop signs, he thinks he's a great driver! My sister and I reported him to the state so they would pull his license. It wasn't an easy decision to make, but it was the right one (yeah, we were wishy washy too). When he kept driving, we took his car. We have arranged alternative transportation for him, so he can still get out and go. He just doesn't have the freedom to get in a car and go anywhere he likes anytime he likes. This is a good thing, because he would have eventually hurt or killed someone if he had kept driving. BTW, he reported his father for the same reasons many years ago!

Many states have a "point" system that awards so may points for traffic violations (speeding, DWI, etc.). Accumulate enough points, and they take your license for a period of time. You can still travel, but you can't legally operate a vehicle.

Flite, that was a very noble and difficult thing for you to do, and i pat you on the back for that, reporting a parent or child to the state to protect others take's courage, and maturity, and resposibility.
You did the RIGHT thing!
You are a good man flite.

Thanks Chappy. Just following the example my father set: always do what's right, even when it's difficult. Before the disease affected his judgement, he not only preached that principle, he lived it! He's due any recognition for his kids doing the right thing.

I've already told my kids when/if I get to that point, do what you have to do to keep me and others safe. If I'm in my right mind, I won't fight you and won't blame you. Think they need to hear that when I'm still thinking clearly (well at least I think I'm thinking clearly!).

This is how I see it for the average driver.....
When people who don't ride, or closely know someone who does ride, are driving in their car, they have their "Ring of Protection" around them.... their steel caged shield which will stop them from being hurt by objects smaller than they are.
So, they have little worry or concern about these smaller objects (which it just so happens motorcycles fall into this category).
In having little concern about these smaller objects, when there is one in their path, they see it, but don't recognise it as being a threat, so their mind just kind of dismisses it as something to not watch out for.
In doing this, they end up saying...... "I never even saw the motorcycle."

Makes sense, Hyper. I've always thought people were just in to big of a hurry and simply not paying attention. I always take into view everything that's moving before pulling out no matter what I'm driving. I've also noticed some peeps aren't to good at judging distance. That's what is scary about the elderly driver. Subconsciously they know it and it's why they're driving 15mph under the limit. SO annoying! Sometimes it's just speed, distance and timing.

And another thing...
Some drivers just have a very negative attitude toward motorcyclist.
I see the look on their face and I think, what the heck did I do to you?
Have you guys noticed this?

And another thing...
Some drivers just have a very negative attitude toward motorcyclist.
I see the look on their face and I think, what the heck did I do to you?
Have you guys noticed this?

Yes. :doh:

And another thing...
Some drivers just have a very negative attitude toward motorcyclist.
I see the look on their face and I think, what the heck did I do to you?
Have you guys noticed this?
Yes. :doh:


Yes, but then most drivers are never as happy as those riding a bike anyway. I think is comes out even cause I am sure they would say the same thing about me sometimes if they could see my face behind the mirrored visor.

The rule here is you should smile and wave to them, and resist the urge to flip them off.


KM

I have the simple answer for why auto drivers don't see motorcycles. The cycle riders are typically wearing camouflage!

Most cycle riders are wearing black or other dark colors too close to what 95% of automobiles are painted. Their cycles tend to be dark colors also. The fact is that the typical cycle rider blends perfectly into the background!

Next time you're driving, take an honest look around at other cycles. YOU see them, sure. They jump out at you, because you're a rider. Now look away and watch your lane, as a car driver with no connection to motorcycling. How obvious is that cycle really?

Try it now with a random pic I found online - Where's Waldo?

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/031802traffic.jpg

It's kind of silly to rail at auto drivers for not seeing us, then insist that only black is cool enough to ride in. Drivers fail to see cars all the time. If the cycle and rider are the same colors as the background - but 1/3 the front or rear profile of a car with fewer lights - why SHOULD a car driver notice them?

You won't make drivers more attentive. Take some responsibility for the situation, and make yourself difficult to ignore. Wear your gear, and make sure it's brightly-colored.

If you read reviews of high-viz jackets, you'll find many a rider saying "and practically nobody has cut me off since I got it!" Real-world, real results.

When I was 17 years old I landed a job that provided me a station wagon so I could travel and haul stuff for the job. My father told me that even though in it I was well protected, this car was more dangerous than a gun because I could seriously injure or kill another person with such a heavy vehicle. He told me to be VERY responsible in that station wagon and to PAY ATTENTION EVERY SECOND because I could kill someone that I didn't see. I never forgot that.

Most people are very selfish by driving while distracted in their big cars, thinking that it's ok because THEY'RE relatively safe. Well what about others that they could hurt or kill if they don't pay attention EVERY SECOND. The attitude of of thinking it's ok to drive distracted because YOUR safe is very self-centered, arrogant and uncaring. Those same people hate it when others act self-centered and uncaring toward them. They should learn to do unto others what they would want done unto them. And parents should teach their children to drive respecting others safety as much as their own. Then maybe it would be safe for us to ride.

X2 to everything Tiki Mon said.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

We only present a visual pattern perhaps 20% the size of the front of a car grill and windshield, to the traffic in front of us. Our headlight only gives them one point of light, on many or most stock bikes. They are used to seeing two points of light becoming separate and distinct on a car coming towards them, as it comes close enough to present a danger to them. Some of us try to offset that danger by putting on driving lights separated as far as possible, to create 3 separate points of light. There are a few other things we can do to increase our visibility, that have been mentioned in various forums here lately. One is wearing a white or hi-vis yellow or green helmet. Yeah, I know what you`re saying about yellow or green, and I`m not very fond of the idea of wearing them either. Gloss White, well...ok...maybe. A hi-vis shirt or jacket, combined with giving manual hand signals for turns or changing lanes, ups your chances for a safe ride by a large margin. Now consider what brighter colors on the motorcycles themselves might accomplish.

Visibility was the main reason I painted my frame and tins yellow. I also added a HID headlight and brake/tail lights to the rear signals. :smiley_th

That was one of the reasons that I was so glad to get my saddlebags (mentioned in another thread). I was wearing a backpack in order to transport my laptop and various assorted other junk to and from work, covering up all of the reflective stuff that's built into the back of my riding jacket. Even worse, my riding jacket is brightly colored, but the backpack was *black*. Didn't do much for my visibility...

Not sure how much bright paint on a bike would do for visibility, since the vast number of collisions happen when someone turns left in front of you (and from that vantage point, the color of the bike isn't readily apparent). My helmet is titanium-colored (matches the color of the teardrop on the tank of my '03), but the next time I get a helmet, I'll be going for something a little brighter (though I'm not sure I'll be able to talk myself into lime green, orange, or yellow).

--FA

Thanks for sharing. Let me get my choir robe on....

You guys are so spot on! In Tucson, most riders are dressed in black, helmet-less, riding the ass of the car in front, and randomly weaving from lane to lane. "I didn't see him" is the only logical outcome!

I believe strongly in maximizing other drivers' awareness of the rider (me!) through visual cues (white helmet, yellow jackets, headlight modulator, brakelight flasher) and situational management (lane position, signals, front buffer zone).

It's a fact that many motorcyclist won't survive the ride. May everyone in OUR club use the safe riding techniques that we all know and stay safe and healthy!